no ops losses in bad weather

[Stamb]

i remember that in my Axis game there were no penalties for flying in bad weather

and then in some patch it was fixed
now it is broken again

same pattern in any weather
clear/rain/blizzard

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[Stamb]

there are many more examples in a game vs Stephan61
select any turn you like

[AlbertN]

To me this is how it should exactly be.

Assuming it's the same squadron flying over, and over, the amount of planes shrinks with each mission.

Why?

Because planes get some damage, have to undergo maintenance, etc. That is the real and true concept of 'operational loss'.

That a plane crashes in blizzard and is truly lost - that's rare.
There is no enemy AA nor enemy action here.

And I hope that's how it will remain.

Planes flying do not self destruct just because they fly.

It's the other amount of 'ops' that is plainly silly if that's the case.

Edit: The amount that should change is how many planes are kept down from each mission depending on weather. But it's not a destruction derby mission to fly planes. Or as it is - a flight that is entirely on friendly hexes or so would be lethal far too regularly to be used, as if planes were Wright Brothers era.

[Stamb]

maybe you are right
but right now Axis can supply troops in each air condition without a problem, so even harsh winter is not a problem any more (i know it cuz i was using air resupply in blizzard in my Axis game )

and in one of the recent patches it was stated that ops losses are going to be significant if you fly in bad weather
and they were

but something is not working again
unless this changes were reverted but not mentioned in a patch notes

[AlbertN]

They won't repair all planes - but as a tip you can try to put AA in hexes adjacent IF they supply right into the frontlines.
Anyhow they do not have that many air assets to supply -everywhere- and the airbases still need to get supplied with freight to be shipped, AND to fuel the transports.

It's not easy.

[Stamb]

this is not what i experienced with an Axis

i was able to fly all my planes each winter turn to supply frontline

if you use fuel loadout then ju52m has huge range
and you can keep them in a cities that have more than enough freight

[Joel Billings]

We didn't intentionally revert anything. I just ran a test case in blizzard with 1.02.27 versus 1.02.21 (the change was listed in .20). I didn't see a difference so I think the increased op losses are still in. Op losses are higher, but rain, even heavy rain, IIRC, is not as bad as snowfall let alone Blizzard. What's really bad is flying in any kind of bad weather at night. That's where your losses really go up, especially with very bad weather.

[Stamb]

check my first message
it is blizzard
it is happening consistently

i just dont wanted to spam a thread with same examples

open current and few previous turns in my game vs Stephan61

[Stephan61]

We didn't intentionally revert anything. I just ran a test case in blizzard with 1.02.27 versus 1.02.21 (the change was listed in .20). I didn't see a difference so I think the increased op losses are still in. Op losses are higher, but rain, even heavy rain, IIRC, is not as bad as snowfall let alone Blizzard. What's really bad is flying in any kind of bad weather at night. That's where your losses really go up, especially with very bad weather.

Hi Joel

Stamb is not referring to HIGH Op losses in this case, but to the lack of OP losses for transports flying in blizzard conditions.

If you can check my Transport missions on our server game on T23 Axis ground phase it would be good have your input on the extremely low OP losses on my transport missions.

Thanks
Steph

[Joel Billings]

I just ran your turn 23 missions in .21, .25 and .27. My conclusion is I can't see anything has changed. There are tons of die rolls, and variations in units used and range can make a big difference. Fundamentally, though, I could not see a difference in the versions. You took 40 losses on turn 23 to op losses with about 600 sorties, many/most in blizzard. I was seeing something between 6-10% op losses in my blizzard flights. When I switched to nighttime, they went up to 30-35%. But there were a lot of variation. So some flights managed to have few or in some cases no op losses, and in other cases the full 10% or more. The version I used didn't change things significantly from what I could tell. That goes along with what I remember, where I was seeing 1/3 of the planes flying at night in blizzard being lost. Bottom line is I think it's where it's supposed to be, and you have to decide for yourself how much risk you want to take. Your example above from Tallinn is a relatively short flight and I saw some cases low like your screenshots and others with close to 10% losses (and version didn't seem to matter).

[Joel Billings]

BTW, losses for both sides are incredibly low in your game. If not playing No Early End, game would be over with a Soviet victory. Since you choose to play with NEE, you probably don't mind the distortion that comes from not having pressure on the Germans to advance in 41. You will have tons of men for 42. Is the German player playing for a 1942 major offensive while you are still low national morale, or is he going to play defense for the rest of the game? Will be interesting to see what happens.

[Stephan61]

BTW, losses for both sides are incredibly low in your game. If not playing No Early End, game would be over with a Soviet victory. Since you choose to play with NEE, you probably don't mind the distortion that comes from not having pressure on the Germans to advance in 41. You will have tons of men for 42. Is the German player playing for a 1942 major offensive while you are still low national morale, or is he going to play defense for the rest of the game? Will be interesting to see what happens.

Thanks for the input Joel, I will monitor the Air War a bit more closely for the next few turns and see if anything repeats that would be considered out of the ordinary.

Yes, your right, its my first adventure into the NEE version and your summary is on point, my whole strategy this time round was to be in good shape come 42......Follow Stambs AAR to find out what happens!

[AlbertN]

Frankly the Soviets must have it cheap there too - German Ju52 crashes like no tomorrow in fair weather and full summer operating from Tier3 Airfields.

This is from T3, clear weather, Ju52 taking off from Suwalki - that's all the missions (with fuel tanks!) that the AG Mitte Transport AoG performed in 1 turn (which is okay).
The losses are way over the top - there should be at -best- 1 OP loss by flying over friendly territory or so.

Can you imagine any general or even your top dog getting on a Ju52 to fly from let's say Berlin to Munich, with the awareness that there is a 5-10% chance to crash, in fair weather?

Tbh I hope the OPs losses are toned down again and again as they're excessive and that we're using something worse than WW1 biplanes here.

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[Stamb]

and now compare losses in clear weather with a losses in blizzard (my first post)
am i the only one who is seeing no difference while weather is completely opposite?

[Stamb]

also, as i said before,
i was playing as an Axis vs Lovenough
and there were similar ops losses in a blizzard as we have right now

as a result i had no supplies problems (serious problems) at all in first winter
it will turn first winter into easy mode for Axis if players will not house rule it like we are doing it right now with Stephan

[Joel Billings]

Could be. Losses are very situational. I assume things like fatigue and range of mission versus range of a/c make a big difference.

I agree that missions that involve flying from one airbase in friendly territory to one airbase in enemy territory, where there is no issue about finding a target and/or loitering time and running out of fuel before getting back (let alone flak damage/A2A damage and stress) should have lower op losses due to range issues. On the other hand, there is likely lots of movement of a/c that is not accounted for by the game which put wear and tear on a/c and ends up causing some to be written off.

[AlbertN]

I just go by perspective and feel.

As said above to me the 'wear and tear' is not the planes 'destroyed' (gone for good) but the shrinking numbers of planes that fly in subsequent missions. Which I take as mundane maintenance and minor problems.

Hence I just hope the OPs losses gets fixed - but the whole air business atm has a feel of being wrong and hastily patched together.