Air Transport OPS losses (latest beta)

[DarkHorse2]

It feels like the OPS losses for air transport missions has been tweaked again.

Playing GC vs AI, Turn 20. Have lost over 450 Transports total. Lost 33 Transports so far this turn alone. (leaves less than 415 remaining.)

Very common to suffer 5% OPS losses per mission.

( isn't this in the neighborhood of the avg Allied Bomber losses per mission over Germany ?)

Most were flown in good weather. All were from level 2+ airbases to level 2+ airbases. None over enemy territory.

Anyways, OPS losses seem rather extreme now... especially considering the following historical accounts:

(IIRC, there is one account where it spanned 3 months and over 1000+ transport sorties, with the loss of 1 Ju52)

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachmen ... pdf.52525/
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachmen ... pdf.67046/
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachmen ... pdf.52526/

[DarkHorse2]

This is from the current turn.

Was intercepted 3 times by Soviet Fighters. I believe I had escorts (which might as well not even fly....)

I lost a couple of transports as a result of A2A, but overwhelmingly the losses were OPS.

airtransportmissions.JPG (118.67 KiB) Viewed 957 times

[loki100]

Hanny - it really depends on the competence of your set up.

This is for a massive airflift from around Rostov to just west of Grozny - I always target bases far enough back to avoid any risk of interception

#

I'm bringing in 1-1.5k per turn on a reliable basis

[Rosencrantus]

Hanny - it really depends on the competence of your set up.

This is for a massive airflift from around Rostov to just west of Grozny - I always target bases far enough back to avoid any risk of interception

I'm bringing in 1-1.5k per turn on a reliable basis

You got any specifics for that? I really need to take care of my transports as they are running kinda running low in my 41 game and I don't want to transfer some out of TBs as they don't have any values for TBs.

[loki100]

Nothing in particular, just ensured lots of freight at Rostov (the FBD makes it into a super-depot),



Ran the routine a couple of times here (and once further north for AGC)

and the main set of drops that turn delivered 1300 tonnes to the target



the image gives you some idea or the relationship to the front line. That is keeping the MP of my motorised divisions in the mid-30s and its basically select F9, select the target, slightly amend the plane list and let it run.

As above, unless I really need to, I tend to drop some distance from the front, so interception isn't a real fear but the distance is around 20 hexes so some operational losses.

More widely, I'll repair that rail hex next turn and then that becomes the super-depot and move the other FBD to improve some of the other rail links here and towards Stalingrad

[AlbertN]

It feels like the OPS losses for air transport missions has been tweaked again.

Playing GC vs AI, Turn 20. Have lost over 450 Transports total. Lost 33 Transports so far this turn alone. (leaves less than 415 remaining.)

Very common to suffer 5% OPS losses per mission.

( isn't this in the neighborhood of the avg Allied Bomber losses per mission over Germany ?)

Most were flown in good weather. All were from level 2+ airbases to level 2+ airbases. None over enemy territory.

Anyways, OPS losses seem rather extreme now... especially considering the following historical accounts:

(IIRC, there is one account where it spanned 3 months and over 1000+ transport sorties, with the loss of 1 Ju52)

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachmen ... pdf.52525/
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachmen ... pdf.67046/
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachmen ... pdf.52526/

I posted this already and will happily repeat present OPs losses are silly.

Yes, Allies were thinking a 5% loss ratio of airplanes for a bombing run over Germany was a TRAGEDY.
When US bombed Sweinfurt (Spelling may be wrong) they had a 16% loss ratio (not counting damaged planes) and they stopped air operations in depth over Germany for 2 months.

Here we have a 5-10% loss ratio of Ju52 flying in good weather, from friendly base to friendly base, over friendly territory. And unless the partisans were given massive numbers of AA guns - that's silly and stupid.

A flight from place A to place B in good weather (and tbh even in rainy or cloudy weather) should not incur in OPs losses unless pilots are untrained.

Otherwise we may as well say that the present tech is before WW1 planes, if there is a 5 to 10 percent loss ratio; and that no single general, dictator, relevant person - or heck, even not a single normal person would get on a plane, if there is ascertained knowledge that just by taking off, you have 5 to 10% chance to die.
Because that's how the game currently is.

[Stamb]

try flying in blizzard

[AlbertN]

That's .27 though, not .29

Unless for some reason Blizzard is treated as Clear, and Clear as Blizzard.

[loki100]

...
Here we have a 5-10% loss ratio of Ju52 flying in good weather, from friendly base to friendly base, over friendly territory. And unless the partisans were given massive numbers of AA guns - that's silly and stupid.

....

doesn't happen on my missions so its clearly something that reflects how you are setting up things. At what level do you rest your transports? Thats a huge variable

[AlbertN]

From 0 to 2 uses per air group a turn unless emergencies.
Even in T1 such losses occurred to me anyhow, flying freight forward to migrate fighters ahead.

In this case I do not know if there are other factors at hand about a 'freshly captured' airfield is the one used to receive freight; but since it's timespan of a week per turn I assume it should be safe in general to not count for accrued OPs.

I did a test for that - using T1 fresh planes and making air supply from Poland to Poland but toward Germany. There was still a 3-5% loss ratio of the Ju52, used more 3-4 times per group though in this occasion.
But starting bases with full personnel, massive freight, and supposedly optimal conditions being the T1 one.

[loki100]

and, surprisingly, I can run air resupply at 1% operational losses

[DarkHorse2]

What patch are you playing Loki? If you are playing the latest, there is noway you would be running %1 losses across the board.

WiTE2_AirTransport_OPS.JPG (133.27 KiB) Viewed 783 times

WiTE2_AirTransport_AirBase.JPG (110.99 KiB) Viewed 783 times

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.29 Beta
GC vs AI
Turn 13
Weather Clear
Level3 Airbase -> Level 2 Airbase


These levels of OPS losses is relatively new. I don't remember it being this extreme in the last beta.

[DarkHorse2]

This is from .25Beta

GC vs AI
Turn 10
Total Transport losses is 125.

The Air Transport OPS losses are running 2 times as much now.

So no, this is not about how air missions are being set-up. It is about the boys changing the OPS code.

WiTE2_ACLosses_T18.JPG (123.35 KiB) Viewed 780 times

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This is from .29Beta
GC vs AI
Turn 10
Total Transport losses 215

WiTE2_AC_Losses_T10.JPG (128.81 KiB) Viewed 776 times

[DarkHorse2]

.29Beta
Turn 20

WiTE2_AC_Losses_T20.JPG (121.76 KiB) Viewed 773 times

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Air Transport losses now approaching Air Recon losses.
Air Transport losses within spitting distance of Fighter-Bomber losses.

[DarkHorse2]

.15Beta
GC vs AI
Turn 10

Total Air Transport Losses: 35

WiTE2_AC_Losses_T10_2.JPG (121.17 KiB) Viewed 771 times

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As far as I can tell, the Transport OPS losses has progressively gotten worse with each new patch.

[loki100]

What patch are you playing Loki? If you are playing the latest, there is noway you would be running %1 losses across the board.
...

of course its the latest patch - I'm still involved in beta testing

[DarkHorse2]

Well lets see some data Loki. Feel free to school us on how to set up our Air Transport missions.

Following is T14, latest patch.
All of these Air Transport losses were OPS losses, none were A2A.

1. 6 of 142
2. 6 of 95
3. 5 of 77
4. 5 of 79
5. 3 of 39
6. 2 of 56
7. 0 of 69

Total for the turn: 27 of 488. (5.5% avg losses)

EDIT:
I missed a mission in my previous total...

WiTE2_AirTransport_T14.JPG (102.97 KiB) Viewed 739 times

[loki100]

Hanny

nothing clever, as you can see from the post above.

what I do, though is to rest if they have fatigue over 14 and make sure they are at level 2+ airbases where the % of plane usage is < % support squads.

So I squeeze out two sources of operational losses.

If i was doing something convoluted, I'd be more convinced there is something really wrong, I'm not, which tends me to the suspicion some of the reported problems are due to basic set up.

Looking at your numbers and the table I'd suggest you are pushing them too hard - an easy way to trigger operational losses. Clearly there are times when this trade off is the way to go but it shouldn't be your default mode

[DarkHorse2]

Now this is from Turn 10 of .15Beta

Lost 1 Ju52 out of 30+ Air Transport Missions? (is that right?)

Guess I knew how to set my Air Transport Missions up then?

WiTE2_AirTransport_T10_B15.JPG (282.43 KiB) Viewed 718 times

[DarkHorse2]

And this is from Turn 9, .24Beta

OK, we are starting to see some OPS losses, but it is reasonable-ish.

Believe the avg OPS loss rate per mission is about 2.7%.

WiTE2_AirTransport_T9_B24.JPG (98.06 KiB) Viewed 715 times