Future Plans

[hossjww30]

Are there plans to merge this w/ War in the West and make an Entire Europe/N Africa game?

Also I'd like to see Gary do a World in Flames type game that encompasses the entire war. Should only take him a few months or so?

[ncc1701e]

If there is War In Europe, I would suggest starting the grand campaign on June 22, 1941 with scenario for early invasions. If grand campaign starts in 1939, Fall Gelb will be a major problem. The historical outcome is very hard to replicate in any operational game.

[Mehring]

For me it would be pointless not to begin in 1939 and with better developed economic and naval aspects.

[ncc1701e]

+1 on economic and naval aspects. My point is that Allies player will surely not run into Belgium like Gamelin did. If French army is well simulated, it can be a challenge. But yes, why not.

[aMaschina]

The longer the timeframe, the more it turns into a sandbox game, this can be observed at the hearts of iron franchise. But the allies not being trapped in the low lands could be circumvented with the historical capture dates and victory points? So there is a point to be there.

[Mehring]

+1 on economic and naval aspects. My point is that Allies player will surely not run into Belgium like Gamelin did. If French army is well simulated, it can be a challenge. But yes, why not.

I take your point regarding the difficulty of simulating it, but then look at WitE. The original SPI War in Europe had special rules like, IIRC an extra German movement phase and ZOC free movement, possibly also compulsion for allies to advance as far as possible into Belgium as possible on may 10th, it's been a while since I played it. All the same, the Meuse crossing was always a chancy low odds affair. beginning in 39, you'd also have all the fun and logistical challenges of to Weserubung or not... or Britain invading Norway first.

Although it was horribly over abstracted, I liked the idea in WiE of a strategic cycle every 4 weeks to deal with production. WitE already has a more developed economic system though the introduction of specific resources like manganese, copper and others which could create bottlenecks would be fascinating. Then if there was a diplomatic option to vary from the economic terms of the nazi-soviet pact....

The longer the timeframe, the more it turns into a sandbox game, this can be observed at the hearts of iron franchise. But the allies not being trapped in the low lands could be circumvented with the historical capture dates and victory points? So there is a point to be there.

Of course, although HoE takes the sandbox to a whole new level with people taking over the world starting from Luxembourg.

[aMaschina]

For me it would be pointless not to begin in 1939 and with better developed economic and naval aspects.

Economics are very historical in wite2, how would you want to change it? Only thing that comes to my mind is that oil is underrepresented in wite2, do you ever run out of it?

I would love more strategic warfare (i know there is a lot of bombing in witw) especially with submarines

[Stamb]

you do not run out of oil/fuel
you do not run out of armament points even if you give your armament factories for free to an enemy

i showed it on the forum

i never saw problems with heavy industry/resource production
the only thing that matters are factories that produce planes/tanks chassis

in my opinion it should not work like this, but it is what it is

[Mehring]

Economics are very historical in wite2, how would you want to change it? Only thing that comes to my mind is that oil is underrepresented in wite2, do you ever run out of it?

I would love more strategic warfare (i know there is a lot of bombing in witw) especially with submarines

Oil is singled out from raw material resources I think, because it is popularly understood to have been a critical resource and war objective for the Axis powers. In reality there are other choke points, other resources that should ideally also be individually represented. For example, Manganese was critical and once Europe was blockaded, the only major source to which the European Axis had access was in the Soviet Union, either through Soviet exports or direct control of the Nikopol mines. You can have all the iron ore and coal in the world, but if you have no manganese, you can't make stainless steel. Without stainless steel, you have no war industry. Having lost Nikopol, by late war, Germany was running out and the continuation of industrial activity was time limited, regardless of success or failure on the front lines. There are other examples like the copper mines at Bor and history has shown how German industry suffered due to poor molybdenum and tungsten supplies. Likewise, there are choke points in production, like ball bearings as the Schweinfurt bombings revealed. There was even a wooden night fighter which had to stop production after the factory supplying a special glue used in its construction was bombed and a substitute didn't work- with unfortunate results.

To recreate 1940's industry on a global scale is quite a task, one I would gladly delegate to someone else It's most relevant to the game where there are or potentially are shortages and, as I understand it, these weighed most heavily on the Axis. It was, after all, a war for control of resources.

[Denniss]

To add: you don't run out of supplies. Germany will run out of fuel in 1945 as civilian consumption is killing them. Axis never have enough oil (intended).
I'm currently running some tests how far supply production may be reduced for both sides and oil/fuel/resource reduction for soviets.
Soviet have 200% oil/fuel production, even down to 150% they produced a lot (testrun not completed), My next test will be 125% for oil/fuel, Res at 125% instead of 175 with soviet 1942+ HI reduced by 50 and/or capped at 200%.
Axis Res/HI, possibly Arm too, will be slightly reduced with proper modifiers for captured facs in France/Yugoslavia, very slightly offset by now-working (hopefully) Res/Hi fac in Luxembourg.
Axis snatched a small bit of oil/fuel with now-working (hopefully) facs in Albania

[Stamb]

i made thread about fuel/oil long time ago
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=375984
some images do not exist anymore

what happens is that Axis consume X fuel per turn
and total amount of fuel drops every turn by Y
it was clear that i would run out of fuel ( i was Axis) even before summer offensive
but then something happens (i think it is hardcoded in the game) that keep fuel at 250k-300k
thus i think that fuel production is irreverent because of that code that does not allow fuel to drop below certain point

[Denniss]

One problem for Axis that it can't get their hands on soviet oil with the possible exception of that in Estonia. That oil from Drohobycz just about 10 clicks from next Hun/Pol refinery is never touched.
While you may see a lot of fuel in storages/pool you have to look at fuel in units vs required just some lines below it.
There may also be other machanisms in the game to reduce fuel consumption like cancelling pilot traing (don't know)

[Stamb]

i continued to play that game and there was 0 issues with a fuel in a units

i can guarantee that if Axis had low MP for their mobile forces cuz of low fuel there would be posts on the forum about it
but there are none

[AlbertN]

i continued to play that game and there was 0 issues with a fuel in a units

i can guarantee that if Axis had low MP for their mobile forces cuz of low fuel there would be posts on the forum about it
but there are none

I do not believe players have developed cognition that far.
Right now the main factor of MP limits is the lousy truck repair rate and so many other factors it is hard to impute it to fuel 'shortages'.

Anyhow I am all in for a more modellable and malleable production business, Axis unit creation too, things like that as 'future plans'.
Prolly a Poll could do better.

[Denniss]

I doubt many players got into 1945 yet, at least using GC41. Maybe some with StoB or those willing to play Vistula.
Do you have a screenshot of the production menu, bottom right where it shows fuel in units vs fuel requested by units
screenshot below is from an AI game, 2/45, most onmap units are bled dry of fuel

[Jango32]

Try putting everything on supply priority 4 as Axis when the front line is close to the NSS hexes, so the earliest would be fighting reaching the starting border in 1941 GC.

[Stamb]

this is from my first wite 2 game vs AI

graph shows that i would run out of fuel in April

1.png (1.69 MiB) Viewed 1436 times

in September i have this:

3.png (175.1 KiB) Viewed 1436 times

your screenshot is AI vs AI? if that is a case then maybe it is related to how AI is managing its units?

[Denniss]

Your fuel situation will improve in 1943 with more oil from Romania and some synthies coming online but it will crash down in mid 44.

[FortTell]

I think the point Stamb is trying to make is that Germany uses more oil than it produces, hence the oil pool shrinking over time. But we do not see any adverse effects on their units - they are all filled with fuel, and so it becomes unclear what exactly happens to the Germans when their oil reserves run dry? And if that is something insignificant, then the game falls short when modeling the oil crunch Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht in general has found itself in late stages of the war.

They only managed to keep the army supplied with fuel by severely cutting fuel consumption in the civilian economy and making the civilians use gas, wood and coal instead.

[Denniss]

in 1945 the army is cut from fuel instead of civilians. Can't really tell what happens during medium shortages like at the end of 42