Issue with Mech Infantry

[jubjub]

IMO, mechanized infantry drastically under perform, and take much higher casualties than they should.

These units only have 1/1/0 armor, instead of 15/10/0 that the SdKfz 251 should have. They appear to not take damage from small arms fire, but they get wrecked by any AT, including PTRD's. This is a big problem, because 80%+ of the losses occur at less than 50m. I'll reiterate that these units ONLY get shot at by AT weapons.

It might also be worth looking into how a 37mm AA gun killed 5 pz gren squads with one shot at 15m.

[Jango32]

Should probably be moved into Tech Support.

[DarkHorse2]

It is good that you raised this issue and it should be looked at.

[Jango32]

It was first reported by AlbertN in his AAR against MSAG here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... r#p4942415

Subsequent posts in the next pages show Panzergrenadier underperforming at every turn.

[Joel Billings]

When you speak of underperforming, what exactly do you mean? Are they taking higher losses than other infantry? Are they hitting less when they fire?

[Denniss]

A sidenote and question - how often do you see air-launched rocket hits in combat?
Those look way too effective and their range in data seems oddly high

[jubjub]

A sidenote and question - how often do you see air-launched rocket hits in combat?
Those look way too effective and their range in data seems oddly high

I haven't looked too deep into air combat yet, but they do seem to be very accurate.

[Jango32]

When you speak of underperforming, what exactly do you mean? Are they taking higher losses than other infantry? Are they hitting less when they fire?

According to the AAR's posts, they don't hit much if anything at all. For example on page 26, the post titled "T103 - Panzergrenadier Ground Elements".

Just seeking to show the pattern about the Panzergrenadier ground elements having a very low HPE.
In general it seems to me that the 'infantry' component attached to mobile divisions is somehow subpar.

These are the 4 German combats to liberate the pocket shown above, all conducted by mobile forces.

I didn't make much of it at the time. But with this new thread the AAR sprang back into my mind and thought it might help if I mentioned it in case something is indeed wrong with mechanised infantry elements.

[jubjub]

When you speak of underperforming, what exactly do you mean? Are they taking higher losses than other infantry? Are they hitting less when they fire?

They take much higher losses than regular infantry. In this battle, the mechanized infantry lost 19/85 destroyed or damaged, while the motorized infantry lost 6/364. I haven't looked into their accuracy.

The excessive losses are borne out by the massive lack of mechanized infantry on the map. In the game I'm looking at, there's 118 healthy elements on the map and a deficit of 700 elements according to the production tab.

[Sly]

I can confirm that I also have similar observations when it comes to mechanized (armored) infantry. It's hard to prove, but I suspect that the combat engine treats it as a "hard target".
Of course, AT guns can shoot both soft targets and hard targets. except that they should use anti-soft power when shooting at infantry. I have the impression that this is not happening. If mech infantry has an armor of 1, and a power of penetration is 50, it means that mech infantry is easily destroyed in the game.
Mech infantry is still infantry, which means that it should be attacked with anti soft "power".

[Zovs]

From a purely tactical perspective (SP for example), a 251/1 loaded with Mech infantry hit by 45mm or a 76mm HE round could kill the squad entirely, this may be the case here.

[Sly]

the problem is that mech infantry squad is treated as infantry squad in this game. Their speed is 6, armor 1, which is a symbolic number. Mech infantry is infantry plus additional weapons mounted on an armored vehicle. the APC itself is not represented in the game at all. It was the same in WitW and WitE1

[GoodbyeBluesky]

But the 1 Armor then makes it targetable for all AT weapons? So just a lot more enemy squads will engage them like the trillion of Soviet At rifles?

[jubjub]

From a purely tactical perspective (SP for example), a 251/1 loaded with Mech infantry hit by 45mm or a 76mm HE round could kill the squad entirely, this may be the case here.

IMO, they should be armored with 251/1 stats for the artillery bombardment and ranges > 500m, and then dismount and be soft targets at closer ranges

[GoodbyeBluesky]

From a purely tactical perspective (SP for example), a 251/1 loaded with Mech infantry hit by 45mm or a 76mm HE round could kill the squad entirely, this may be the case here.

IMO, they should be armored with 251/1 stats for the artillery bombardment and ranges > 500m, and then dismount and be soft targets at closer ranges

This seems reasonable to me and would make them viable. Otherwise every Mech TOE is just going to be a straight downgrade of what was before.

[Joel Billings]

Can someone send me a save or two with battles involving mech infantry. Attach them here or email to 2by3@2by3games.com. Gary agreed that ideally they'd be fired at longer ranges (mostly by artillery) as if mounted, and at shorter ranges as if dismounted. If I can get saves, ideally one as the attacker and one as the defender, Gary said he'll work on this and try to improve it. Thanks.

[jubjub]

This save has a bunch of mechanized infantry in the pz/pz gren units around Tallinn. You can move and attack with them against a plethora of targets.

[jubjub]

Soviet side. There's a battle east of Mogilev where some mechanized infantry get wiped. Message me if you need the password.

[Joel Billings]

Thanks, I've put it on the list for Gary to look into.

[AlbertN]

I do confirm they underperform since a lot of time.

I reiteratedly said that by then in the AAR vs Msag. Which was like during 'arty patch'.

Good to see that finally it will be seeing because the panzergrenadier squads / panzer pionere / panzer'ized infantry type were all trashy and shoddy.