Do you automate tankers in fleets?

[100thMonkey]

I've been noticing aberrant behaviors from fleets' tankers for a while. More often than not, they're very far from the fleet (and I mean "very" far), and never around to refuel the fleet. And that happens with fleets in which the tankers have been for a long time (I'm not talking about fleets to which the tankers have been added recently with "Top up fleet with ships").

I've set the tankers on automatic, even when in manual fleets, assuming that's the setting to use for tankers, since they're supposed to do something completely different than what the fleet does (ie: filling their own cargo tanks and refueling the fleets' ships as needed).

But the tankers are so weird lately that I wonder if putting them on auto is the right thing to do... Do you put them on manual? Or if you set them to auto, do they behave the way you expect them to?

[Nightskies]

They have done what I expect from them. They'll show up for ships that have lost their fuel mid-jump, and during long engagements to fill up the ships with the least percentage of their fuel left. They don't keep the fleet topped off and are not swift at this task. They deliberately do keep a good distance to ensure that they never jump into a battle before the fleet does- they used to. The way they are now is MUCH better, and function well enough for fleets on extended operations, namely when engaging a distant Attack Point.

[Jorgen_CAB]

The seem to do quite alright for me... not traveling directly with the fleet at all times I thin is expected behaviour. They are suppose to arrive to fill up the fleets tanks when needed and stay at a distance to keep them safe.

You have to be patient when you want the fleet to refuel when low on fuel, you will need to take this into account when using the fleets manually. If the fleets are on complete automation I find that the tankers seem to be able to handle the fleets just fine, most of the time.

If I operate the fleets manually I just jump the fleet to a planet in a system and wait for the tankers to come and refuel the fleet. Once that is done I make the next jump. After a fight I usually just jump the fleet to a neighbouring system and wait for the tankers do do their jobs, unless I fully control the space combat occurred in.

The best advice is patience, don't keep giving new orders to the fleet if you want the tankers to come and refuel it.

[MichaelJ007]

I do find tanker behavior extremely frustrating whether using manual or automated fleets.

I tend to use a number of small automated fleets for defense and raiding, and a handful of large manual fleets for assaulting planets. In either case, the tankers never stay with the fleets (expected behavior) and are often on the far side of the galaxy when half the (automated) fleet runs out of fuel in deep space.

For the manual fleets it's slightly less of an issue. You can move your fleet to an assembly point, and then just wait for the tankers to be eventually summoned to do their job. But its grossly inefficient.

I do think that this can be managed with better waypoint logic, which applies when there are tankers in the fleet. If moving to a friendly or neutral waypoint the tankers should stay with the fleet. Before heading off to the next waypoint there should be an assessment whether refeulling is necessary. When moving to a waypoint flagged as enemy or threat investigation then have an assembly point nearby where a final refuel can be done, and then have the tankers stay there rather than jumping into the threat area.

This will also serve to make sure the fleet is properly assembled before an attack jump, rather than having individual ships arriving one at a time, or odd ships left in deep space with no fuel while the rest of the fleet goes into combat.

Here is crossing fingers that it makes the priority list soon.

[100thMonkey]

I do find tanker behavior extremely frustrating whether using manual or automated fleets.

I tend to use a number of small automated fleets for defense and raiding, and a handful of large manual fleets for assaulting planets. In either case, the tankers never stay with the fleets (expected behavior) and are often on the far side of the galaxy when half the (automated) fleet runs out of fuel in deep space.

That's exactly the type of things that I see also. Quite annoying.

The best advice is patience, don't keep giving new orders to the fleet if you want the tankers to come and refuel it.

But in war, the more quickly you can strike at different targets, the more chances you have of defeating the enemy. Having to wait very long times for tankers is, as MichaelJ007 puts it, grossly inefficient.

I do think that this can be managed with better waypoint logic, which applies when there are tankers in the fleet. If moving to a friendly or neutral waypoint the tankers should stay with the fleet. Before heading off to the next waypoint there should be an assessment whether refeulling is necessary. When moving to a waypoint flagged as enemy or threat investigation then have an assembly point nearby where a final refuel can be done, and then have the tankers stay there rather than jumping into the threat area.

Agreed. That would improve things immensely. Maybe there should also be specific tactical settings for tankers, allowing to specify how closely (or not) we want the tankers to follow the fleet they're attached to.


@Nightskies and jorgen_CAB (and anybody else who wants to chime in):
When you have tankers in manual fleets, do you put the tankers on auto or manual?

[Jorgen_CAB]

I don't think it matter if they are on manual or auto if they are in a fleet, if they are in a fleet they act accordingly... is it not so?
Not sure I have even tried setting them on manual as it really does not make any difference when any other ship is on manual or auto in a fleet.

I think, the reason why I have little problems is because my defence groups is operating in one place, usually from a fuel station with one tanker attached to the group. My defensive patrol groups are rarely more than five ships plus a tanker, sometimes no tanker at all.

Manual task-forces works quite fine... while you sometimes have to wait for the tankers to arrive they always will be stationed at the fleets home port... so... making sure that this home port is as close to the fighting as possible is important. I don't seem to need to wait for long... as long as the tankers are present when I order the ship to go to the closest rally point, before a fight.

I'm not saying that tankers might need some more attention... I just don't have had the massive problem with them that you describe in general. Some odd behaviour here and there sure...

I have more issues with the "top up" button as the AI often choose to build ships at the opposite end of the empire and then ships run out of fuel trying to get to the fleet as they can't plot a course to the fleet with a pit stop for fuel or they constantly stop and recalculate as I move the fleets etc... If I'm active with a fleet I always have to build the ships manually and perhaps gather them in a separate fleet and then attach them to the fleet I want at a more logical time and place. This is way more annoying than tankers in my opinion...

[100thMonkey]

I don't think it matter if they are on manual or auto if they are in a fleet, if they are in a fleet they act accordingly... is it not so?
Not sure I have even tried setting them on manual as it really does not make any difference when any other ship is on manual or auto in a fleet.

I'm not sure either. If I remember correctly, in DW:U, ships in fleets had to be one or the other (don't remember which one) to function "properly". So I assume that was carried into DW2. From the start with DW2, I've put my fleets' ships on manual. I had many problems with fleet behaviors, but I'm pretty sure most of it (if not all) was (is?) bugs. But the tankers are so weird lately that I wonder if that auto or manual state has an effect...

Manual task-forces works quite fine... while you sometimes have to wait for the tankers to arrive they always will be stationed at the fleets home port... so... making sure that this home port is as close to the fighting as possible is important.

Thanks for that info. I didn't realize that tankers are supposed to be stationed at the home port. Since most of my fleets are on manual, except for a few defensive ones, that is surely at least part of why I have those problems. So I'll change the home port of my manual attack fleets from now on.

But, I believe that a much better behavior for tankers would be to follow their fleet, while staying out of the systems where the fleet go, until ships need refueling. And, of course, to go fill their own cargo tanks when needed.

I have more issues with the "top up" button as the AI often choose to build ships at the opposite end of the empire and then ships run out of fuel trying to get to the fleet as they can't plot a course to the fleet with a pit stop for fuel or they constantly stop and recalculate as I move the fleets etc... If I'm active with a fleet I always have to build the ships manually and perhaps gather them in a separate fleet and then attach them to the fleet I want at a more logical time and place. This is way more annoying than tankers in my opinion...

I get this too, and yeah, pretty annoying! My impression is that it occurs, at least in part, in relation to resources availability in the different construction yards.

But in my opinion, whatever the thinking behind this is, it's wrong.

The "Top up" button is obviously there to simplify things, to reduce the micromanagement required to add ships to the fleet in accordance to the fleet's template. But when it build ships all over the empire to complete the fleet, that results in either more micromanagement, or in lots of delays and fuel usage!

So... Houston, we have a problem...

[MichaelJ007]

Makes no sense for tankers to stay close to the home port? The fleet can then just refeul at the space station. No need for tankers.

The entire point of tankers is to provide mobility and extended operating range.

As to the original question, fleet tankers should always be 'automated' even in manual fleets. What we are discussing is what that 'automated' behavior should look like.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Makes no sense for tankers to stay close to the home port? The fleet can then just refeul at the space station. No need for tankers.

The entire point of tankers is to provide mobility and extended operating range.

As to the original question, fleet tankers should always be 'automated' even in manual fleets. What we are discussing is what that 'automated' behavior should look like.

That is not what I meant, that they stay close to the home port... they operate out of the home port just like the fleet. If you make sure to place the home port as close to the front you are working in you also make sure the tankers will assemble there before you head out.

When you manually operate a fleet you might forget this facts and then you might see the tanker lag behind for a while more than necessary.

Tankers will arrive with the fleet, they just stay a bit behind the fleet for safety. So you will have to wait for a short while for them to catch up.

What you have to do is...

1. Send your fleet to a new system in your territory and set a station in that system as the new home port. This system should be at the border closest to the enemy.

2. Let your entire fleet assemble there, including your tankers. Wait until all ships are present fuelled and ready. If you need tankers to refuel them wait until the tankers go and get more fuel and come back.

3. Go to an offensive assembly point close to the invasion point... assemble all the ships and wait for tankers to refuel your ship.

4. Jump into the combat area and defeat the opponent fleet.

5. Wait for the tankers to arrive and refuel your ships. They might have needed to go and replenish their fuel stocks.

One issue that will make things problematic is changing the orders of your fleet... try to refrain giving your fleet new orders until the tankers have refuelled them and you are ready to jump to the next target or go home.
This is part of what I mean with that you have to be patient... it works well if you just are patient and the tankers will not be far away from your fleets.

You have to work WITH the system not against it... I'm sure they are not finished with tweaking how tankers work. But it is quite difficult to know what a player want if they constantly give new orders for their fleets. It is allot easier to "fix" fully automated fleets in that regard.

I don't seem to have much issue with my defensive automated fleet. They operate from their home base and the tankers will follow the fleet on missions and stand ready to refuel them by dropping back from any potential combat area. Most of my patrol fleet are small, about five sometimes seven ships, depends on if it is early or mid game. A patrol fleet sometimes have one tanker attached.

You also have to account for the tankers to go back and resupply Caslon as well... they will want to do that eventually too. The tanker will do its work... just don't change the orders of your fleets until it is fuelled. Perhaps even set their engagement range to something like nearby or when attacked to make sure they are not interrupted, if you have several fleets in the same place... you don't want them all to react to enemy civilian ships jumping in and disrupt the process.

[Nightskies]

Reinforcing one thing Jorgen somewhat mentioned, I notice that when they are behaving the most erratic is when they've been added to the fleet using one of the automatic functions. If they don't make it to the rally point before the fleet is given orders, the tankers may not go along and simply continue to the rally point (not always the home base). Then, when the fleet is on the other side of the galaxy, the tankers may not even chase after them, staying at home until they're needed (sigh). Despite that, I universally use automation for fleet tankers, sometimes telling an empty ship to stop moving so the tanker can catch up.

Jorgen's method is good, and there's more direct workarounds too: build the fleet at one port. Or put the tankers to manual when moving the fleet around. Put them to automatic when you've started the attack, consenting to the chance that the tanker might be the first one in.

Also, if the tanker is distant enough from a friendly refueling station when it runs low (or perhaps only when empty), it will instead mine it on its own on automatic.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Yes... the important thing is to wait for all the ships, including the tankers, are all assembled at the home port before you do anything with the fleet. In worst case scenario just detach the tanker and put it on manual and manually make sure the tanker get to the home port fully fuelled and ready to service the fleet. Or just build a new tanker close to where the home port of the fleet is and attach it to the fleet.

If you attach a tanker that is gazillion distance away you may have problems... just the same as you have when topping up a fleet and you have ships in the fleet scattered all over your empire.