76.2mm field guns stuck in transit pools?

[Mehring]

Since the introduction of the 76.2mm ZiS in March 42, I've been watching the accumulation of large and ever expanding transit pools up to early May, of this model as well as the USV field gun. Both guns are in demand with shortages in many units resulting in virtually empty active pools but the transit pools of both guns keep expanding, currently 1221 ZiS and 914 USV. Some of these guns are clearly being allocated to units but way short of demand and availability. Is there a blockage in the transit pools somewhere?

Server game zephir_MatixForum vs Mehring.

[Joel Billings]

In the last turn 400 got built but the pools only went up by 30. I can't say exactly what's going on as there's a lot of churn by design in the production/replacement system. But I don't see the numbers of guns in the pool to be a problem given that at lot are going out to units each turn.

[Mehring]

Thanks for taking a look. I thought "churn" might explain some of this. I started taking screenies of the transit pools from the week beginning March 22nd which show the following transit pools, a significantly higher increase than you cite. While there is a lttle fluctuation in the USV in transit, the new ZiS in transit pool rises every week, the smallest rise (I believe) being where the data are missing.

--------------ZiS - USV
22/03/42 808 - 802
29/03/42 890 - 816
05/04/42 992 - 816
12/04/42 1073 - 801
19/04/42 Missing
26/04/42 1154 - 806
03/05/42 1221 - 914


Perhaps I've misunderstood the meaning of the pools but I gather that all guns delivered to units are coming from the active, not transit pools, that the guns in transit must first become active before they can be allocated to combat units. "Churn" seems a more logical explanation for the USV gun as it's not a new model and as well as damaged units being returned from the front some are perhaps also being replaced by the new ZiS. The active pool of ZiS guns is always around empty, possibly always actually empty, but the transit pool increases every single week unless the week of the missing data was an exception, I believe not. If my understanding is right it would mean that a portion of fresh production is added to the transit pool every week and even after two months none of this is finding its way out. Can this be right?

[Joel Billings]

As far as I know, newly produced items go to the active pool. Transit pool items are not available for use. Every turn, some percentage (25%?) are moved to the active pool. Elements that are damaged and return to the pool go to the transit pool, as do I think elements that return because they no longer are called for by the TOE, or are above the Max TOE (I think in this case only if in the reserve, or only in reserve and refit, I don't remember the specifics). So there can be lots of elements going to the transit pool. As long as more elements are returning to the transit pool faster than those moving from Transit to Active, the transit pool will increase. Your active pools do appear to be getting fully used up each turn, and more units are taking on the new equipment over time.

[Mehring]

That's my understanding too, of how the system should work, but something else is happening here. All the new ZiS production cannot be arriving in the active pool. It looks to me like a significant amount is going into transit straight from production.

ZiS production only begins in March. After 4 weeks production, 808 of the presumably 1120 guns produced are in the transit pool. They haven't had the time and opportunity to get damaged, unless there are some serious sabotage teams at work. The only alternative I can think of, given I can't see how many ZiS are actually in combat units, is that other guns are being converted to the ZiS model that I can't see and which are not counted in production figures. As of the week 03/05/42 (10 weeks production) 1221 (40%) of 2800 guns listed as produced are in transit. Are there actually thousands more?

[Denniss]

Lots of OB upgrades in this period, units crying for ZIS, probably having very low amounts in on hand, switch to available F-22s or USVs
You'll see the same with heavy AA guns.
Its possible the element recovery from transfer pool is not high enough and/or the element swapping function in units is too aggressive.

[Mehring]

Currently, and I think this has been the case since I was tracking the transit pools in late March, there are virtually no active pools of any of these guns, just 48 USV and 3 F22.

I didn't track this before but currently all the units using ZiS are at current TOE (mostly 42a Rifle) except 1 x 1941 motorised brigade. Unfortunately my opponent is on holiday for 2 weeks so I won't be able to update on the situation for a while but with nothing to switch to in the active pools and all units at current TOE, if nothing is wrong here surely the ZiS transit pool should start to flow into the active pool.

[FortTell]

I have the same problem in one of my games, about half of our team's ZiS 76mm guns are already in the transit pool after just two months of production. This game was started on an early patch, so there are no F-22 guns.


In addition, we have a surplus of 85mm AA guns but a deficit of 76mm artillery. This means that the production system refuses to produce 76mm ZiS AT guns, which are converted from 76mm ZiS artillery (9 produced in 10 turns, with a build limit of 50 per turn).
Which guts our AT Regiments as they switch from the 41a OB (with 20 85mm) to the 42a (with 20 76mm + 20 PTRD).

[Denniss]

gun conversion requires source guns in active pool. It seems that function looks at active pool before these guns are recovered from transit pool. So one problem leads to another problem.

[Mehring]

I also have an active pool of 500+ 85mm AA.

[Stamb]

what about 82mm M41 mortars that are produced 675 per turn?

it seems that they also go into the transit pool as i lose much less than 675 but i am still missing more and more of them while transit pool only grows

i reported it some time ago but there was no response
would be very nice if devs check if it is not bugged

[Stamb]

saves:

1.rar

(6.59 MiB) Downloaded 20 times

2.rar

(6.91 MiB) Downloaded 23 times

[Stamb]

from another game

t1:

1.png (79.86 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

there was no attacks at all
and situation on t2:

2.png (73.64 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

saves

saves.rar

(4.17 MiB) Downloaded 18 times

[Veterin]

from another game

t1:
1.png

there was no attacks at all
and situation on t2:
2.png

saves
saves.rar

I noticed this in my game against Jasonbroomer too. I had a very large amount of 76.2 and 82m motors in the transit pool but i never tested if it was working correctly. I always had 0 in the active pool each turn and it looked like transit pool kept growing

[Denniss]

I did look at some of my AI testgame saves and it seems it takes until ~July 42 to get these 76mm guns out of transfer pool and either into units or pool.

[Mehring]

I did look at some of my AI testgame saves and it seems it takes until ~July 42 to get these 76mm guns out of transfer pool and either into units or pool.

Is that what Joel described as "churn," ie WAD?

[Mehring]

On turn 28 June 42-4 JUly and the 76mm guns in transit are still growing. Not that it makes any difference, they are completely useless, virtually unable to disrupt an unfortified target in open ground let alone damage it. Ammo wasters, like 132mm rockets. I know they still had it all to learn but I have to question the values this game gives to early war Soviets.

[FortTell]

On turn 28 June 42-4 JUly and the 76mm guns in transit are still growing. Not that it makes any difference, they are completely useless, virtually unable to disrupt an unfortified target in open ground let alone damage it. Ammo wasters, like 132mm rockets. I know they still had it all to learn but I have to question the values this game gives to early war Soviets.

I looked at some combats in May 42, and ZiS 76mm do not perform better than USV. They shoot ~33% more, roughly as advertised by comparing their rates of fire (20 vs 15), but it does not lead to an increase in HPE. It stays roughly the same. So on average ZiS guns seem like a downgrade, because all these extra shots do not lead to an increase in damage. However, there are much more of them so I will take them.

Comparison of ZiS and USV 76mm guns in offensive combats during T49 (will do defensive combats later)

USV FPE;USV HPE;ZiS FPE;ZiS HPE
22;1.4;33;1.0
26;0.8;20;0.9
16;0.18;23;0.16
15;0;23;0.14
17;0.5;24;0.52
15;0.22;23;0.23
17;0.33;23;0.4
18;0.44;23;0.26
18;0.36;23;0.4
17;0.34;24;0.35
17;0.18;23;0.21
18;0.89;23;0.77
18;0.51;23;0.56

[Mehring]

Found this in Wiki fwiw-
"Marshal Kulik ordered the F-22USV back into production. At Artillery Factory No. 92, Grabin put the ZiS-3 into mass production in December 1941.

"The factory's ZiS-3 stockpile grew and went unused as the Red Army refused to accept the guns without the usual acceptance trials. Grabin convinced the army to issue the guns for impromptu testing at the front, where it proved superior to existing divisional field guns. ... The ZiS-3 underwent an official five-day acceptance trial in February 1942, and was then accepted into service as divisional field gun model 1942 (full official name). " emphasis added. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_div ... 42_(ZiS-3)

Which suggests that the gun should enter service with a pre-existing stockpile, but instead, the stockpile is created from new production.

I recall ASL gives a superior armour penetration value to the F22USV but the ZiS 3 was preferred for other reasons. ASL ordnance notes also assume the 1941 57mm ZiS2- which only appears in WitE in a mobile version- went out of production because its production facilities were overrun, which is not the explanation according to Wiki. Rather, the 57mm was overpowered for dealing with thin 1941 German armour, its presumably solid shot frequently penetrating one side of a tank and exiting the other causing minimal damage. The carriage of the ZiS 2 was repurposed for the 76mm ZiS 3, making a lighter 76mm piece than previous models. In 1943 the ZiS 2 was brought back into production.

[Denniss]

ZIS-3 is the USV barrel on a ZIS-2 carriage with better sights and carriage armor panels so armor performance must be very similar unless affected by the muzzle brake (which I doubt).