[Question] Understanding Flame Tanks

[Wiedrock]

Hi guys, what are flame tanks about in this game? I've heard and read that they (as in RL) may be used in city fights. And I know they have a CV of 9 and nice "soft" damage at short ranges looking at the editor data, but what are their actual "multipliers"?

1. I have seen some battle reports/result windows with flame tank support units having ~25-30 CV at the end that's why I was wondering ...are there any "positive" mulipliers specific for flame tanks that are not mentioned in the Game Manual?

2. Do this "negative" multipliers apply to flame tanks, as they are AFVs?
Examples: Urban/Heavy Urban are both "Double dense (2)"; Heavy Woods is "Dense (1)"

(1) In dense terrain, the CV of infantry type ground elements is
doubled and the CV of AFV and combat vehicle type ground
elements are halved (23.8.3).
(2) In double dense terrain the CV of infantry type ground
elements is quadrupled (x4) and the CV of AFV and combat
vehicle type ground elements is quartered (x1/4).

3.1 What about flame tanks concerning Fortifications (in any terrain)? Do flame tanks also reduce (wooden) fortifications?

During an attack a fort may be partially or fully
destroyed [...].
This can happen due to the numbers of engineers,
artillery, and overall size of the attacking force.

Flammpanzer II – To assist in the reduction of fortified
positions, the Germans modified a Panzer II...

3.2 ...or does "flame damage" just completely ignore the existence of bunkers, when "flaming" the enemy units inside?

[Jeff_Ahl]

Good question. I have always assumed that they are good att attacking in cities and against fortifications - as IRL and that the penalties did not affect them. Regarding the high level of realism I can not see that they have done anything else.

But it might not be so and overlooked. Looking forward to answers, other wise I'll do some testing my self.

[Joel Billings]

AFAIK, they still suffer the CV penalties for dense terrain. As for their actual killing power, you'd have to run battles and use the Export Battle Details (CSV) option and look into the guts of a battle to see how they do. I don't know of any special bonuses they get other than what their stats would have them do, but I could be wrong. Gary sometimes builds in factors that don't get documented.

[Jeff_Ahl]

AFAIK, they still suffer the CV penalties for dense terrain. As for their actual killing power, you'd have to run battles and use the Export Battle Details (CSV) option and look into the guts of a battle to see how they do. I don't know of any special bonuses they get other than what their stats would have them do, but I could be wrong. Gary sometimes builds in factors that don't get documented.

I'll try it out when I got the time. Thanks for answer.

[Wiedrock]

[solved] (I hope)

1. I thought the 9 CV shown in the table at p.387 (34.4.) "for Flame Tank" were supposed to be the CV amount for the whole "fresh" Flammpanzer Battalion, since randomly this 9 is pretty close to what the Unit card/counter for the Support unit shows (it shows ~8.51/6,76 at 100 CPP).
   • Note that 100CPP seem to have the same effect on atckCV like a lvl 1 Fortification has on defCV.
2. Note that the units HQ stands inside a swamp and therefore the defensive Value is decreased for all AFV by "/2" and increased for all MEN by "*2" and everyone gets a additional +2 for defence. I guess this answers my 2nd question about the "negative" multipliers for Flame tanks/AFVs, but I am not 100% sure yet (I may do some attack testing in a 2'dense urban setting).
3. I could not find any "special" influence for flame tanks on fortifications (altough I am not 100% sure about this). There never appeard a "engineer divded" sign in the top left like it does with some kinds of canons/StuGs and obviously engineers.

This quote helped me to understand/figure out how CV actually is calculated (i hope). Until I read this one, CV was mostly mentioned as some kind of an "artificial" number (at least for my understanding) .

[...] note that calculated CV’s are fairly large
numbers, so for ease of visualization the CV displayed on
the unit counter on the map and in the unit bar are divided
by 100 and rounded down, while the unit CV’s displayed
in the combat resolution display have been reduced by a
factor of 10 and rounded down.

So, for example:
The German 100th Flammpanzer Battalion has at 100% TOE:
Type / Amount / "CV weight factor" (WITE2 Game manual p.387; 34.4) / (Amount*CVwf)

Code: Select all

Engineer Squad / 3x / 3 / 9
Medium Tank / 5x / 9 / 45
Flame Tank / 42x / 9 / 378
Recon Tank / 25x / 7 / 175
Foreign Medium Tank / 9x / 9 / 81
Support / 28x / 1 / 28
SUM = 716

So, dividing this 716 by 100 would give 7,16 in the unit card/on the counter, but since there is rounding going on and CV shown may be influenced by supply/fuel/ammo/vehicles etc. the unit card shows 8,51/6,76 [atck/def].
Running some Deliberate attacks at 100CPP it outputs ~79-80 CV on the Battle report! And since the battle report is supposed to show

Code: Select all

actualCV/10
OR
CounterCV*10

the 80 seem fine!

CV_Flammpanzer.jpg (89.91 KiB) Viewed 902 times

I hope i got it right now. If I am fundamentally wrong about something, pls let me know!

[ToxicThug11]

[solved] (I hope)

1. I thought the 9 CV shown in the table at p.387 (34.4.) "for Flame Tank" were supposed to be the CV amount for the whole "fresh" Flammpanzer Battalion, since randomly this 9 is pretty close to what the Unit card/counter for the Support unit shows (it shows ~8.51/6,76 at 100 CPP).
   • Note that 100CPP seem to have the same effect on atckCV like a lvl 1 Fortification has on defCV.
2. Note that the units HQ stands inside a swamp and therefore the defensive Value is decreased for all AFV by "/2" and increased for all MEN by "*2" and everyone gets a additional +2 for defence. I guess this answers my 2nd question about the "negative" multipliers for Flame tanks/AFVs, but I am not 100% sure yet (I may do some attack testing in a 2'dense urban setting).
3. I could not find any "special" influence for flame tanks on fortifications (altough I am not 100% sure about this). There never appeard a "engineer divded" sign in the top left like it does with some kinds of canons/StuGs and obviously engineers.

This quote helped me to understand/figure out how CV actually is calculated (i hope). Until I read this one, CV was mostly mentioned as some kind of an "artificial" number (at least for my understanding) .

[...] note that calculated CV’s are fairly large
numbers, so for ease of visualization the CV displayed on
the unit counter on the map and in the unit bar are divided
by 100 and rounded down, while the unit CV’s displayed
in the combat resolution display have been reduced by a
factor of 10 and rounded down.

So, for example:
The German 100th Flammpanzer Battalion has at 100% TOE:
Type / Amount / "CV weight factor" (WITE2 Game manual p.387; 34.4) / (Amount*CVwf)

Code: Select all

Engineer Squad / 3x / 3 / 9
Medium Tank / 5x / 9 / 45
Flame Tank / 42x / 9 / 378
Recon Tank / 25x / 7 / 175
Foreign Medium Tank / 9x / 9 / 81
Support / 28x / 1 / 28
SUM = 716

So, dividing this 716 by 100 would give 7,16 in the unit card/on the counter, but since there is rounding going on and CV shown may be influenced by supply/fuel/ammo/vehicles etc. the unit card shows 8,51/6,76 [atck/def].
Running some Deliberate attacks at 100CPP it outputs ~79-80 CV on the Battle report! And since the battle report is supposed to show

Code: Select all

actualCV/10
OR
CounterCV*10

the 80 seem fine!
CV_Flammpanzer.jpg


I hope i got it right now. If I am fundamentally wrong about something, pls let me know!

Flamers are awesome I noticed they are not so good for urban battles but for clear hexes they are the terminator

I like to use my Flampansers for the Nrowegian theaterbox to burn Norwegians. This is where their CV is most efficient. Once you lose them you lose them forever but if you put them in Norway they will be alive forever and you can remove useful divisions

I have worked out that it is better to put out of production models into theaterboxes where they are safe and can contribute cv forever.....


Pic related. Average german Flammpanser.