Is Finland too weak?

[Tanaka]

Any historical offensive is out of the question you are always on the defensive and for the first time I find myself getting crushed by the Russians in MP and will probably soon lose the capital of Helsinki surrendering the entire country. Of course various factors can come into play. I've seen some posts commenting on missing units and missing fronts. Just curious what are players opinions on this?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Any historical offensive is out of the question you are always on the defensive and for the first time I find myself getting crushed by the Russians in MP and will probably soon lose the capital of Helsinki surrendering the entire country. Of course various factors can come into play. I've seen some posts commenting on missing units and missing fronts. Just curious what are players opinions on this?

Well, I have been squawking about Finland's starting position come Barbarossa for along time mainly with War in Europe. There is no Karelian Army Group. Same goes for WaW. There should be at least 2 corps at and near Joensuu in SC-World at War. I would actually have most of the Finn units that are available to build in the German production already on the map..as Finland was fully mobilized in early 1941. No need for the Germans to have to build them up before hand. Anyways thats my opinion.

At least I got my Finland fix..as both Chrispy131313 and Lothos addressed this issue for WiE with their respective mods, Chrispy's Fall Wiess II and Lothos's TRP mod.
Image is a screen shot of Finland's dispositions circa pre-Barbarossa withe Lothos's TRP-WiE mod. Also images of one of my Europa modules with a Finland map [images] which was used with other maps of the western Soviet Union when conducting East Front matches on the table.

Again..for SC-WW2 World at War...Yeah, I think Finland should be beefed up somewhat as stated above.
Cheers

[archmache]

I've always thought it would be cool (no idea how to code) that when you winter war as Russia that you could actually fight the Finns. But you would not be 100% mobilized. So you could attack Finland, but since your only making like 120 MPP, any damage you take in the war would hamper your R&D, so it would eventually force you to make peace with Finland.

You could start by having the troops in low readiness and strength and then fight like that the entire time but getting them to full strength would be too expensive which would cause MPP loss.

[Tanaka]

Any historical offensive is out of the question you are always on the defensive and for the first time I find myself getting crushed by the Russians in MP and will probably soon lose the capital of Helsinki surrendering the entire country. Of course various factors can come into play. I've seen some posts commenting on missing units and missing fronts. Just curious what are players opinions on this?

Well, I have been squawking about Finland's starting position come Barbarossa for along time mainly with War in Europe. There is no Karelian Army Group. Same goes for WaW. Their should be at least 2 corps at and near Joensuu in SC-World at War. I would actually have most of the Finn units that are available to build in the German production already on the map..as Finland was fully mobilized in early 1941. No need for the Germans to have to build them up before hand. Anyways thats my opinion.

At least I got my Finland fix..as both Chrispy131313 and Lothos addressed this issue for WiE with their respective mods, Chrispy's Fall Wiess II and Lothos's TRP mod.
Image is a screen shot of Finland's dispositions circa pre-Barbarossa withe Lothos's TRP-WiE mod. Also images of one of my Europa modules with a Finland map [images] which was used with other maps of the western Soviet Union when conducting East Front matches on the table.

Again..for SC-WW2 World at War...Yeah, I think Finland should be beefed up somewhat as stated above.
Cheers

Great analysis as always your posts are some of the ones I have seen and I quite agree with you. This would give them the units needed for a capable defense and possible small offensive move as historical. Also agree about production. In my game the Russians will take the capital before any units I have bought will come into play. The Finns need to be strengthened in some way at least. As they do not have enough units they are very vulnerable to paratroops and special forces as well something I don't think the Russians would have ever attempted facing while facing Germany.

[Tanaka]

I've always thought it would be cool (no idea how to code) that when you winter war as Russia that you could actually fight the Finns. But you would not be 100% mobilized. So you could attack Finland, but since your only making like 120 MPP, any damage you take in the war would hamper your R&D, so it would eventually force you to make peace with Finland.

You could start by having the troops in low readiness and strength and then fight like that the entire time but getting them to full strength would be too expensive which would cause MPP loss.

Interesting idea. This begs the question as I do not play allies much can Russian declare war on Finland at any time before Winter War event or Barbarossa? If yes what are the effects? If so what would be the negatives positives?

[Chernobyl]

One issue I see with adding Finnish forces on the eastern border is the road in WaW isn't like the road from WitE in the above screenshots; it doesn't really lead around Lake Ladoga's east (where Finnish forces historically made advances during the Continuation War), it leads directly to the White Sea, only a few hexes away from cutting the USSR off from Murmansk (a task that was never accomplished). So care needs to be taken to make sure to balance this right. However it doesn't seem impossible considering the USSR has complete control over how many units to place along the border in preparation.

I am not sure if vanilla WaW gives Finland too few or too many forces compared to historical, but I think in general it would be cool to tweak the starting setup so Finland threatens to do something closer to what they accomplished historically (an advance north east of Lake Ladoga. And it would also be nice as others have suggested to make sure Finland is cheese-proof.

[Chernobyl]

I'm not an expert on the Continuation War or Karelian geography but I was toying around with the map and here is what I imagined:

[BillRunacre]

Interesting idea. This begs the question as I do not play allies much can Russian declare war on Finland at any time before Winter War event or Barbarossa? If yes what are the effects? If so what would be the negatives positives?

They cannot, as only fully mobilized Majors can declare war. This is why it's handled by a Decision Event.

[Zeckke]

Finland is strog, in this game but will be more strong geting SWEEDEN axis. which is easy by diplomacy, the 3 units finland plus the two divisions from sweeden and the cops sending to finland make a strong mix.

so go for sweeden by diplo and send the 3 sweeden units to finland

you can teach the AI getting sweeden, as for example i teach the AI always to get yugoeslavia

[Tanaka]

Interesting idea. This begs the question as I do not play allies much can Russian declare war on Finland at any time before Winter War event or Barbarossa? If yes what are the effects? If so what would be the negatives positives?

They cannot, as only fully mobilized Majors can declare war. This is why it's handled by a Decision Event.

Ah this makes sense thanks Bill!

[Tanaka]

Finland is strog, in this game but will be more strong geting SWEEDEN axis. which is easy by diplomacy, the 3 units finland plus the two divisions from sweeden and the cops sending to finland make a strong mix.

so go for sweeden by diplo and send the 3 sweeden units to finland

you can teach the AI getting sweeden, as for example i teach the AI always to get yugoeslavia

You are the first person I have heard say Finland is strong how so? I find trying to get Sweden to Axis is too expensive for my tastes when I have so many more pressing needs elsewhere...Talking MP more than SP here as it would be easier against the AI to get Sweden turned to Axis...

[Tanaka]

I'm not an expert on the Continuation War or Karelian geography but I was toying around with the map and here is what I imagined:

It looks the same to me what am I missing? Is this just a map change? The straight shot to Petrozavodsk? I feel like this would make things easier for the Russians if the additional Fin units are not added...

[Chernobyl]

Is this just a map change? The straight shot to Petrozavodsk? I feel like this would make things easier for the Russians if the additional Fin units are not added...

Well yes I only changed the map as I didn't do any deep research on Finnish force composition. I was hesitant to provide them with more corps as I'm not sure it matches their actual forces (they get a whole "Army" which counts for quite a bit).

I was considering giving the Finns an additional corps starting in Joensuu.

I altered the road to more closely match maps I found online and the actual direction of the Finnish attacks in 1941. There should probably be a river between lakes Ladoga and Onega. There really isn't a road between Joensuu and Belmorsk as depicted on the vanilla map.

[Tanaka]

Is this just a map change? The straight shot to Petrozavodsk? I feel like this would make things easier for the Russians if the additional Fin units are not added...

Well yes I only changed the map as I didn't do any deep research on Finnish force composition. I was hesitant to provide them with more corps as I'm not sure it matches their actual forces (they get a whole "Army" which counts for quite a bit).

I was considering giving the Finns an additional corps starting in Joensuu.

I altered the road to more closely match maps I found online and the actual direction of the Finnish attacks in 1941. There should probably be a river between lakes Ladoga and Onega. There really isn't a road between Joensuu and Belmorsk as depicted on the vanilla map.

Gotcha but how would they attack there without the extra units? They certainly cannot attack towards Leningrad as historical. Their only option is defensive and that is a struggle.

[Chernobyl]

Gotcha but how would they attack there without the extra units?

The extra units I leave up to you and others

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I would also suggest 1 Finn corps in Joensuu...as Chernobyl suggested. It could come from the build que...so no change from the total OOB of Finland...it just wouldn't have to be built.
The Finn's had a considerable force there in 41...and at least the Soviets would not just walk right in north of Ladoga.
This would fit with the WaW scale and wouldn't upset balance...as it would still be easy for the Soviets to block an advance on the Murmansk RR or Volkhov.

[Tanaka]

I would also suggest 1 Finn corps in Joensuu...as Chernobyl suggested. It could come from the build que...so no change from the total OOB of Finland...it just wouldn't have to be built.
The Finn's had a considerable force there in 41...and at least the Soviets would not just walk right in north of Ladoga.
This would fit with the WaW scale and wouldn't upset balance...as it would still be easy for the Soviets to block an advance on the Murmansk RR or Volkhov.

Agreed this sounds historical, sensible, and balanced.