The Power of Air Superiority
Moderator: Joel Billings
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The Power of Air Superiority
When I tried Air Superiority (AS) over a year ago I had OPS losses out the rear end. Today those OPS losses are very very low compared to what they were then. As such I want to show the power of AS. Here you will see JG3 has been set up for AS mission to fly in the Soviet turn only in a 9 hex radius. ((Remember AS missions get a bonus on jumping on other non-AS missions) Enjoy the show))
1st Interception of a Very Large Soviet raid incoming. Germans are not scared of numbers and go full tilt into the raiders. 20 fighters downed
2nd Interception the Germans are still full tilt on shooting these Soviet raiders down. 31 more fighters down.
3rd Interception the Germans call in some more fighters on the AS mission and finally get through to some of the bombers with the fighter to bomber ratio being depleted over the last couple of combats. 28 fighters and 32 bombers go down.
4th Interception from AS Germans still angry as "hornets". 1 more Soviet fighter and 20 bombers go down.
1st Interception of a Very Large Soviet raid incoming. Germans are not scared of numbers and go full tilt into the raiders. 20 fighters downed
2nd Interception the Germans are still full tilt on shooting these Soviet raiders down. 31 more fighters down.
3rd Interception the Germans call in some more fighters on the AS mission and finally get through to some of the bombers with the fighter to bomber ratio being depleted over the last couple of combats. 28 fighters and 32 bombers go down.
4th Interception from AS Germans still angry as "hornets". 1 more Soviet fighter and 20 bombers go down.
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Interception # 5 Germans running out of Ammo, so the Germans throw their goggles and able to only down 4 Soviet Fighters
Interception # 6 Rearmed, angry as hell for their lost goggles on the last AS interception the Germans shoot down 8 Soviet fighters and 82 bombers. (German Anger issues really need to be looked at)
Interception #7 Germans come in hard and fast for another 3 fighters and 64 Soviets downed. Out of Ammo the Germans return to base again to rest and let the Soviet "bomber" to do "its" run.
Bombing by Soviet bombers - Soviet bomber made it to its target and does "its" sole run on bombing.
Interception # 6 Rearmed, angry as hell for their lost goggles on the last AS interception the Germans shoot down 8 Soviet fighters and 82 bombers. (German Anger issues really need to be looked at)
Interception #7 Germans come in hard and fast for another 3 fighters and 64 Soviets downed. Out of Ammo the Germans return to base again to rest and let the Soviet "bomber" to do "its" run.
Bombing by Soviet bombers - Soviet bomber made it to its target and does "its" sole run on bombing.
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
No losses to the Germans on the AS interception and no OPS losses for these planes. These fighters were pretty well rested for the fight. Seems pretty lopsided but that is the power of AS if set up correctly.
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
For further reading on this with Joel's comments you can see here;
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0#p5047390
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0#p5047390
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Thank you, Marine, this is very interesting, I appreciate it. You've peaked my interest in playing around with AS in my current server game. Thanks!
SCPO USN (Ret.)
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Why use air superiority? Dont interceptors take off to catch enemy's anyway?
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
AS worked nice in this example, same as in an example from Hardradi
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=387574
Problem is that you can setup AS only in an air phase. So it is good for static objects. And for the ground forces you either make multiple AS missions and hope that some of them will match your ground position at the end of the turn, and then you cancel others, or maybe there is a way to overcome this issue?
Also when i reported GA auto interception issues for the first time, it was my first pvp game, 02.11 patch, https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... d#p4941598 (for some reason some of my images are replaced with with an images that i do not own
) GA was not intercepted but City bombing was. Is city bombing that different from GA? I dont think so.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=387574
Problem is that you can setup AS only in an air phase. So it is good for static objects. And for the ground forces you either make multiple AS missions and hope that some of them will match your ground position at the end of the turn, and then you cancel others, or maybe there is a way to overcome this issue?
Also when i reported GA auto interception issues for the first time, it was my first pvp game, 02.11 patch, https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... d#p4941598 (for some reason some of my images are replaced with with an images that i do not own
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Glory to Ukraine!
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
I had a few games I used AS in but as we know from the past the OPS losses were horrid with almost half in OPS losses in some cases. Here is Jubjub talking about my AS Missions against him https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p4872351 Here is me explaining what happened in that Jubjub game https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2#p4873502 Hardradi's example is a fine example I advise people to read it. Hardradi goes more into detail than I ever could (and writes clearer than I ever could tooStamb wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:14 am AS worked nice in this example, same as in an example from Hardradi
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=387574
Problem is that you can setup AS only in an air phase. So it is good for static objects. And for the ground forces you either make multiple AS missions and hope that some of them will match your ground position at the end of the turn, and then you cancel others, or maybe there is a way to overcome this issue?
Also when i reported GA auto interception issues for the first time, it was my first pvp game, 02.11 patch, https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... d#p4941598 (for some reason some of my images are replaced with with an images that i do not own) GA was not intercepted but City bombing was. Is city bombing that different from GA? I dont think so.
What air mission can you not set up in the "Air phase" @Stamb? (besides Air drops, or am I not understanding this fully like I always do) So instead of looking at AS as a problem, look at them as an assest, set them up! Better to have it then to not have it. You CAN move the fighters to a new airbase during the Air phase and then assign to an AS mission. I have done this and works just fine.
I suggest a retest on the test of city bombing to find out. I have enough on my plate so thank you for volunteering
If others have good examples please post them. The more here on the forum that can benefit from these postings the better. This is about getting people involved and understanding this game. Many items have changed from a year ago and truly appreciate Joel & his team.
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
I meant that you can not setup AS during ground phase.
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
You are welcome and why I post. I just bumble around in the dark knocking things down. I am not the smartest, nor the first but try and get people to look at things. Even though most people don't read the forums to find out how to better their play. We can learn from history you knowhomer82 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:47 am Thank you, Marine, this is very interesting, I appreciate it. You've peaked my interest in playing around with AS in my current server game. Thanks!
Anyway, I feel like this on the air war which I wrote in the other thread, "Once the realization that the Air war is "multi-facted" a new "light" will shine through to clearer thought. Meaning each part not being an entity in and of itself but multiple cogs that need to work together." Looks like this is coming together nicely from where it was before.
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Correct. Does lead to some interesting situations. But of course you can't do this either with GA, GS, recon, etc etc. BUT with AS you can set up for "just" the enemy phase to fly and I like that
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Exactly. That is why I wrote: "And for the ground forces you either make multiple AS missions and hope that some of them will match your ground position at the end of the turn, and then you cancel others, or maybe there is a way to overcome this issue?"HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:32 amCorrect. Does lead to some interesting situations. But of course you can't do this either with GA, GS, recon, etc etc. BUT with AS you can set up for "just" the enemy phase to fly and I like that![]()
Anyway I am curious to see what other people will do with it and in the meantime I will stick to my current house rules
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Ah, this is what I have been wrestling with for awhile with trial and error. See if you set fighters on the ground and have no air mission those fighters have a "chance" to intercept. Only the Devs know that chance but it is small. I call this "basic" interception and come to see a 1 in 4 chance of those fighters intercepting from me looking at it. Don't quote me on it and I am sure someone else knows for sure but the chance is small. Now, if you set AS the AS has a better chance to intercept AND bring in other fighters, as Joel said in the links above. Then you can have GS set up with just fighters in the GS that will also use interception. Thus the many moving cogs support each other to put up a fighter screen for the Germans. You can even do this as Soviets to try and take air space from the Germans with overwhelming fighter support. I alluded to this in my Beethoven game in the Discord channel (which I am no longer a part of) that the Soviets could use and try(I never did this as Soviets just had mind mapped it out as possible).aMaschina wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:08 am Why use air superiority? Dont interceptors take off to catch enemy's anyway?
Again this is my philosophy, "Once the realization that the Air war is "multi-facted" a new "light" will shine through to clearer thought. Meaning each part not being an entity in and of itself but multiple cogs that need to work together." Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong, time will tell but is working out that way
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Of course. Would be nice to have the capability to do so that is for sure.Stamb wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:36 amExactly. That is why I wrote: "And for the ground forces you either make multiple AS missions and hope that some of them will match your ground position at the end of the turn, and then you cancel others, or maybe there is a way to overcome this issue?"HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:32 amCorrect. Does lead to some interesting situations. But of course you can't do this either with GA, GS, recon, etc etc. BUT with AS you can set up for "just" the enemy phase to fly and I like that![]()
Anyway I am curious to see what other people will do with it and in the meantime I will stick to my current house rules![]()
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
It is nice to know this is so fixed.
When first release I remember the OP losses. I felt wrong war. It was WWI when the machines were more dangerous to the pilots than the enemy.
Thanks for the retrospective.
When first release I remember the OP losses. I felt wrong war. It was WWI when the machines were more dangerous to the pilots than the enemy.
Thanks for the retrospective.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
I think the issue with auto intercepts versus AS or GA versus GS is all around the ability to detect the incoming raid. There should be no difference between a city attack and a ground attack in how the interceptors react. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's my understanding. Worth someone testing it out. Usually when conducting GA missions, they are against targets near or on the front line, thus less time in the air to detect the raid and intercept it. A city attack against a city in the rear has a better chance of being detected in time to get fighters to intercept. AS allows you to detect the raid far out from the target (as in HLYA's example). If you detect the raid early enough, you can get intercepts to happen. Now what else determines the chance to detect the raid? Currently I think it's based on date and the airbases nearby (with the larger airbases having the better chance to detect incoming raids). This is an abstraction to some extent, but deals with issues of detection by radar versus ground based systems of spotters, and that all of this improved over time. I think we've mentioned this before, but I don't remember if it's covered in the manual.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Luckily no 18+++ content.Stamb wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:14 am (for some reason some of my images are replaced with with an images that i do not own)
“Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics.”
My Mods:
GE Gui & Sym Mod Depot (continued)
Rasputitsa for your eyes. Soviet colours redone.
My Tools:
Turn-Dates-Converter
Command Efficiency with Command Range Modifier
Planning map 1.02.45_Beta
My Mods:
GE Gui & Sym Mod Depot (continued)
Rasputitsa for your eyes. Soviet colours redone.
My Tools:
Turn-Dates-Converter
Command Efficiency with Command Range Modifier
Planning map 1.02.45_Beta
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
HLYA,
As you probably be guessed, I am playing WITW not so much WITE-2. (actually doing some SH3 and CW, at the moment) I bought it and will probably get WITE-2 DLC whenever released. I am very impressed with GG as a designer, and can console the bitter past knowing Matrix only pockets about 10% and the rest is 2by3.
I was waiting on playing WITE-2. Do you think that with the current patch level, v45, that the game engine is ready for prime time? Is it a balanced game if one plays the full campaign? Do realistic tactics yield realistic outcomes?
Thanks.
As you probably be guessed, I am playing WITW not so much WITE-2. (actually doing some SH3 and CW, at the moment) I bought it and will probably get WITE-2 DLC whenever released. I am very impressed with GG as a designer, and can console the bitter past knowing Matrix only pockets about 10% and the rest is 2by3.
I was waiting on playing WITE-2. Do you think that with the current patch level, v45, that the game engine is ready for prime time? Is it a balanced game if one plays the full campaign? Do realistic tactics yield realistic outcomes?
Thanks.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
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Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Mark,MarkShot wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:40 am HLYA,
As you probably be guessed, I am playing WITW not so much WITE-2. (actually doing some SH3 and CW, at the moment) I bought it and will probably get WITE-2 DLC whenever released. I am very impressed with GG as a designer, and can console the bitter past knowing Matrix only pockets about 10% and the rest is 2by3.
I was waiting on playing WITE-2. Do you think that with the current patch level, v45, that the game engine is ready for prime time? Is it a balanced game if one plays the full campaign? Do realistic tactics yield realistic outcomes?
Thanks.
I would start a thread and ask the community as a whole your last three questions. You will find answers all across the spectrum varying by the degree of expectation of the game and that players skill in game. Then further broken down if playing the AI or H2H. Ultimately the player skill level dictates the balance, no matter what others say, especially in a H2H game.
I have "always" loved playing WITE, both WITE1 and WITE2, no matter the patch level and have always striven to give feedback. In which the developers here really do listen and strive their utmost to accommodate. I thank them for that, "Thank you Devs"!
Having said that I can only comment on Grand Campaign games (Sudden Death & No Early end versions) versus players (h2H) up to patch .44 since I only the other day updated to .45. Plus I only ever play the GC games and rarely any other scenarios.
Here is my 2 cents for what it is worth (Key point is NO Motorization in these assessments)
* If playing H2H GC game versus "equal" skilled opponents I feel the game is pretty balanced if not playing with open TB's with current "meta".
* If playing H2H GC game versus "equal" skilled opponents I feel the game is tilted towards the Germans if playing "with" open TB's with current "meta". (with current patch this a good check box when a weaker Axis plays a higher skilled level Soviet and still may not be enough)
From what I have seen I still feel that many of the "old" tactics players are using do not fit well in WITE2. There is an ebb and flow to WITE2 and too many are still doing the rush rush rush attack attack attack of old that will get you in a very bad place in the game. Also all the moving pieces to form a synergy is not being applied in game as demonstrated in this forum post with Air. Ground war has a synergy too which many have not come to realize yet, but they will with time & is the beauty of this game)
Having said that and to really confuse you and others. I personally feel I can win 99% of the time as Germany on closed TB's and 100% of the time with open TB's. I say this based on a "non meta" game. I am reluctant to share but in the end I am sure I will to benefit the community.
As I have always done, I have been passing some of the little bit of knowledge I have in this game to others with one on one sessions and PM's. I can only say that it seems to me after them seeing certain items brought to light their fun factor increased substantially. I can not speak for them but that is what it seems to me. Because in the end it is all about the friendship you garner with your fellow gamers that is the ultimate prize.
I hope this helps and is just my 2 cents and 2 cents now days is not worth much.
Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Thanks. At least, I cannot fall prey to bad habits from WITE-1! 
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
