Leaders dismissed too easily?

[Rosencrantus]

I remember seeing in few patches ago that leader dismissal rate were increased. This made sense as it rarely happened before. But now after experiencing many defeats during the Soviet winter offensive the leaders with low political ratings got dismissed - expected of course, but what was surprising was the fact that I had Von Kluge and Von Weichs sacked. Each with a 9 and 7 political rating and 93W 51L and 70W 41L record respectively.

All army groups and army formations in my army got its leader replaced except for 18th, 11th, and 17th armies, which didn't see much fighting over the winter. Want to bring this up for the devs to see and consider perhaps it is a bit too easy for leaders - even with good political ratings to get sacked.

There is my current turn in the zip file.

[jasonbroomer]

Not answering the question but to raise another possible issue, has anyone seen any leaders get skills upgrades since this patch? (I think I perhaps have seen one, but far fewer than before.)

[Joel Billings]

There's a formula that takes into account the political rating and wins and losses (where Axis losses early on count more than they do later on, and vice versa for wins). Looking at your save, Weichs does appear to have one of the lower win to loss ratios, if not the lowest, of the active leaders. This seems WAD now, although I would be interested to hear what the distribution seems to be in terms of High Command/AG/Army/Corps leaders and also with the Axis Allies versus German. I realize we don't have any good way to get this info, as you basically have to look at each turn's logistics report to see who got dismissed. About many total leaders have you seen dismissed so far? It's possible we overshot the mark, but we wanted there to be more interference from the top in player's ability to keep their leaders.

[Rosencrantus]

Since the beginning of the winter offensive:

Note that axis allies didn't see much fighting as they were deployed in the south.

3 - All German army group leaders were dismissed
4 - All 4 Panzergruppe leaders were dismissed
3 - Army command leaders have been dismissed
And I would say around 3 max corps leader have been dismissed.

W/L of OKH as of the current turn is 1404W / 565L. (I believe OKH's record represents all battles)

W/L of OKH when the Soviet offensive on T24 started was 1182W / 339L

From what I've experienced so far it seems army command and above are dismissed more frequently than corps command. The corps commanders that stood against most of the Soviet attacks and have negative W/L haven't been dismissed yet such as Hans Jordan, Theobald Lieb, Seydlitz-Kurzbach, etc. Save for Georg Lindemann who got dismissed with a 50W 27L record as a corps commander.

This is just one example so far so I can't say that the system itself has been overtuned or if RNG is really against me, so am just bringing notice to this potential issue.

T24 is attached in the zip file.

[Rosencrantus]

Also I wonder if a bunch of successive defeats would further increase of a dismissal. Am wondering if this is the case or not.

[Rosencrantus]

Not answering the question but to raise another possible issue, has anyone seen any leaders get skills upgrades since this patch? (I think I perhaps have seen one, but far fewer than before.)

I've for sure seen a couple upgrades. Like a couple skill upgrades or promotions to higher rank. Remember that skills cannot be promoted over 6 if that's the case.

[battlefield91]

In my recent 41 GC I saw Messe from the Italian Corps getting dismissed after his first battle (he lost) with a 0-1 ratio.

[Joch1955]

well in RL, 3 out of 3 army group, 6 out of 8 army and 3 out of 4 panzer group commanders had been dismissed/replaced by spring 42. So it looks like the game gets it pretty much right. Glad to see this feature is in.

[Rosencrantus]

I would say it's a bit different in this case because all leaders in the game are being dismissed due to bad performance while IRL some commanders were replaced because they were promoted/took a higher post, such as Von Kluge taking command of AGC and Heinrici command of 4th Army.

It is good to see the command chain shaken up during times of hardships like IRL but I was just genuinely surprised that a 9 political leader can be dismissed at all with a decent enough record. RNG must really not like me...

[ToxicThug11]

There has definitely been an uptick in leader dismissals across all my games, especially for Soviets.

[ToxicThug11]

Would like to add that STAVKA in my current game has changed hands three times in the past few turns, first to Timoshenko, then to Budyonny, now to Kirill. Previously, I haven't been able to use Zhukov across my more than 30+ games. Now it is common that Zhukov is immediately dismissed and can be used in other sectors.

[ToxicThug11]

Kirponos was fired from Southwestern Front, replaced the Leningrad front, fired again, now he leads the Western Front. Lol.

[Acidman]

I was playing russians in one of the steel inferno campaigns. I think it was 1943 start. Zhukov was fired on my first turn; Vatutin was fired on my second turn.

I find this to be ridiculous. The AI can never judge these things and the whole thing should be an option.

Sometimes I know I will lose battles, but I'm just trying to delay the enemy. The AI in this game can never understand this, so I don't really see the point in this mechanic at all.

[OctopusEV]

well in RL, 3 out of 3 army group, 6 out of 8 army and 3 out of 4 panzer group commanders had been dismissed/replaced by spring 42. So it looks like the game gets it pretty much right. Glad to see this feature is in.

I have similar ratios, only von Rundstedt is still in charge in spring 42. The feature might now reproduce reality, but I did perform much better than the Wehrmacht did in 41/42, for example capturing Leningrad in '41. What is than the leverage to fire the relevant commanders of HG Nord?

I am also upset about the feature as the starter of this thread. I would be ok with it, if it would be tweaked:
Hitler or the OKW can dismiss leaders to their liking, but I demand the right to pick the replacement.

I do that all the time already. As the game is set up, I see myself as the Commander in Chief "East". I can order offensives, I can replace HG- (AG's), Armies-, and Corps commanders, juggle around division. Why do I have to accept, that OKW names constantly incompetent leaders with the only acceptable rating in political and often admin? Let them propose a list of candidates or give me the freedom to name the replacement. I am waisting plenty of AP's to correct their errors.

[Pat_ge]

That is ruining games, to be honest.
That stupid system replaces best leaders with a speed that is much faster than you getting points to correct these errors.

And on top the replacements are simply catastrophical.
Taking a leader from a panzer army and replacing him with a GenL that has a mech rating of 3 seems to be a subtle form of sadism. While there is Kleist and half a dozens generals with mech 6+ sitting idly around ...

It's also questionable why losses are simply counted as they are. But that is the beginning of the story.

When a battle ends with retreat, but with losses of 10:1 against the "winner", then this is no loss, but exactly what the retreating side wants. The definition of "loss" would definitely need an upgrade.
As is, it starts a chain that ends simply in a situation that is uncontrollable. If that should be the aim, then the possibility to change leaders can be taken away, because the system decides, not the player.

[Pat_ge]

These leader dismissal actions by the "AI" is a complete game braker.

I just had Guderian as Army Group chief (with a lot of Mech) replaced by a Gen with Mech 2.
I can't even remember how many outright stupid decisions the system has done in one single game. To an extent that influences the outcome of the game.

This utter nonsense is ruining games.

Why don't you let the system also decide about moves?
That would be exactly the same thing.
No players needed anymore, they can do something else where they enjoy themselves.

[Cavalry Corp]

I thought in a patch they said the the replacement leader will be about the same standard?? Agree a mech rating 3 guy for
pza would be a stupid idea. I am sure this was mentioned in a patch.

cav