Convoy lines are completely messed up

[dyrn]

Hi.

After trying serveral versions of the game I must conclude that even the latest v.5.0.0.10 has not cleared up the everlasting CW convoy problem. It even looks as if the problem has gotten worse and it completely destroys gameplay not to speak of the enjoyment og the game. In v. 5 I am not even able to succesfully convoy Canadian OIL to be saved in UK. Further, the Mene Grande OIL is unable to convoy to Canada and so forth.

Nice game - but not playable at all until this problem gets fixed. Perhaps it would be more wise to clear up this convoy problem once and for all before spending energy and time on AI-play?

[Centuur]

Hi.

After trying serveral versions of the game I must conclude that even the latest v.5.0.0.10 has not cleared up the everlasting CW convoy problem. It even looks as if the problem has gotten worse and it completely destroys gameplay not to speak of the enjoyment og the game. In v. 5 I am not even able to succesfully convoy Canadian OIL to be saved in UK. Further, the Mene Grande OIL is unable to convoy to Canada and so forth.

Nice game - but not playable at all until this problem gets fixed. Perhaps it would be more wise to clear up this convoy problem once and for all before spending energy and time on AI-play?

There is only one very minor bug regarding production planning that has to do with running Vichy France that I know of. I get full production every time. There are no major bugs there.
It is almost always human error if you can't get it correct. Sure: it's not easy to understand the production planning system, because there is something in there which isn't logic at all. It took me an awful lot of time to get the thing working for me too.
The most important thing to consider is this (and this is not logic at all): simply put your convoy points you need in the sea area's and do nothing with production planning before the preliminary production phase comes around. Any time spend on production planning before that phase start can be completely useless and is simply a waste of time. Now that took me an awful lot of time to understand this.
Next: oil first, other resources later.
And: always switch between major powers on a side before closing them. If you've got all of the major powers on a side correct (that is: no changes have been made to another one in between) you can start closing them.
Finally: let the program do it's thing first. Make default (or overrides) only if they are really necessary.

Now: if you are really stuck with this: put a gamesave at the start of the preliminary production phase in here and I will give you a full explanation on how I was able to get you full production with as much oil points saved by the CW.

[Joseignacio]

dyrn:

It seems you have not made the degree + graduation for the resolution of the many defects of this system, that it seems wont ever be repaired since for some "they work fine".

If you follow the instructions of the tutorials alone, and try to organize the convoys you'll get constant irreasonable changes to your decisions for resources by the Artificial Foolishness (AF).

However, I have got in contact with people who not only know how the convoys should work according to tutorials, but also have managed to work out how to make the game overcome it's own errors in following the instructions and leave production 100% or almost.

Unfortunately sometimes the next step to "production final" disarranges everything again.
And you may have to do it all again because every turn those resources from South Africa, Congo, Guyanna, ..., you were sending bordering Africa were not arriving because the game sends the resources from Canada and others through Bay of Biscay instead of Faroes, leaving unused conv in Faroes and occupying the convs that should have taken those african resources to UK.
And then we could speak of Trade Agreements that sometimes dont work or use stupid ineficient lines of conv.

But they will tell you this doesnt exist. In fact, it does, and it can only be solved by experts who, besides of knowing what the game supposedly need you to do, know how to overcome the problems when this doesnt work. But, hey, maybe I dreamed all of this, scratch that!

I feel like in the early times of the Internet when the Internet Providers made you check all your connections and made a lot of tests concluding your modem was not working properly when, in fact, the lack of service was due to their servers having gone down, and they knew it!

Without accepting there is this problem, the problem will not be solved because it must be in our minds, so I would say to people who want to buy this game, about this matter in particular: 'Abandon all hope ye who enter here' as in Dante's Divine Comedy

[Centuur]

dyrn:

It seems you have not made the degree + graduation for the resolution of the many defects of this system, that it seems wont ever be repaired since for some "they work fine".

If you follow the instructions of the tutorials alone, and try to organize the convoys you'll get constant irreasonable changes to your decisions for resources by the Artificial Foolishness (AF).

However, I have got in contact with people who not only know how the convoys should work according to tutorials, but also have managed to work out how to make the game overcome it's own errors in following the instructions and leave production 100% or almost.

Unfortunately sometimes the next step to "production final" disarranges everything again.
And you may have to do it all again because every turn those resources from South Africa, Congo, Guyanna, ..., you were sending bordering Africa were not arriving because the game sends the resources from Canada and others through Bay of Biscay instead of Faroes, leaving unused conv in Faroes and occupying the convs that should have taken those african resources to UK.
And then we could speak of Trade Agreements that sometimes dont work or use stupid ineficient lines of conv.

But they will tell you this doesnt exist. In fact, it does, and it can only be solved by experts who, besides of knowing what the game supposedly need you to do, know how to overcome the problems when this doesnt work. But, hey, maybe I dreamed all of this, scratch that!

I feel like in the early times of the Internet when the Internet Providers made you check all your connections and made a lot of tests concluding your modem was not working properly when, in fact, the lack of service was due to their servers having gone down, and they knew it!

Without accepting there is this problem, the problem will not be solved because it must be in our minds, so I would say to people who want to buy this game, about this matter in particular: 'Abandon all hope ye who enter here' as in Dante's Divine Comedy

I'm very sorry to inform you that regarding production planning this is total BS.
Again: I can get optimal production in the game. That you can't and don't want any help is something I can't change, unfortunately.
So: get me a gamesave from the start of the preliminary production planning and stop ranting about this.

[dyrn]

Thx to Centuur. I will try to follow your instructions and return if I mess them up.

[Joseignacio]

I know how you do to be able to overcome the Automatic Foolishnes, you need to select the routes in a certain order, for example if relating to France, you need to send the convoyed resources to Lille, else there may be problems. Or you need to do some actions several times till the game accepts them. Plus, if there is a problem, the AF does not informs you on what the problem is, to send your resources the way you ordered.

The fact that you beta testers know all the tricks you need to do to help the AF work in spite of normally not working does not prove anything, as every player sadly already knows.

And even if this was true, it is absolutely unfriendly.

I, too, have a poor opinion of your whining, basically that they are crap, because of trying to hide the problems from new users.

[Joseignacio]

Thx to Centuur. I will try to follow your instructions and return if I mess them up.

A prediction: You will be back

[rkr1958]

Let me vent a bit. I could (almost) accept MWIF convoy lines and production numbers if it would stop lying to me! What I mean, is I open the production screen and I see a result with unused CPs in 1 or more sea areas. I then return those "unused" CPs to base and MWIF changes the production numbers on me! I've decided that it's an ironclad contract when MWIF gives me production numbers and unused CPs during RTB. If I return the unused CPs and MWIF changes the number then I'm forcing MWIF to give me the original production number. Otherwise, it's just sheer madness and wasted playing time fiddling with game saves and production again!

MWIF either needs to stick to its word or gives us more manual control over convoy lines and production. Neither of which I know will be done so it's up to us and the only thing I know how to control (i.e., fix) are the final production numbers!

[Joseignacio]

[TeaLeaf]

I would strongly advise against leaving the production planning alone untill preliminary production.
You risk having to redo hours upon hours of the turn to correct the loss of multiple build points everytime you do that.

However, indeed do not trust the 'unused CP' when in production planning.
The one thing I do trust in the planning screen, is the amount of BP the program says you'll have.

I plan the resource transportation of every MP mainly outside production planning screen and when all is set up, I verify everything in production planning while still in the Naval Movement Phase. Mainly I check all resources (oil and non-oil separately) with 'single route' and 'all active allied' checked, to see what route every resource is taking.
I also made a habit of checking everything that is still 'idle'. Only when I am OK with all transportations (of all MP), I click end turn -for all MP.

I'd say MWIF gets it right 80% of the time, so I need to 'default' 20% of the routes.
I recently learned that default routes are not always reset when deleting or modifying trade agreements and this is one of the causes that slowly start messing up resource management.
Another cause of problems is sending BP, if sent from a different location (other than the HC of the sending MP). MWIF seems to revert back to sending from the capital frequently (after a save and reload of your game, for example). So, if sending from the capital is not a problem for you, then it works fine.
Unfortunately, often it is NOT fine to send BPs from the capital (sometimes it isn't even possible -Paris occupied by Germany for example).

Finally, using saved oil for production also caused problems for me in the past. Using the 'rail away' option even if you want to use the oil in place seems to solve this. Just make sure you designate saved oil for production in preliminary production, verify this in the final production planning and do not save and exit the game before you can confirm the BP are available in the unit production screen.

This ensures (for me at least) the convoy system to work OK 80% of the time. Knowledge is power and knowing when to expect a system malfunction gives you the option to plan around it (hopefully achieving the desired effect).
(only annoyances still happen after some US entry options and the fall of France.

[Centuur]

I never do anything with production planning during the naval movement phase. It's a waste of time. If for any reason convoy points get lost during the turn, you find yourself with a complete mess.

I always get maximum production (off course: depending on the number of convoys in the sea areas) when the preliminary production phase has been done.

I almost never come across problems during that phase. The trick for production planning is to not close any major power on a side, until you've cycled through all of them checking if everything is OK, without having to change anything. If you change anything, you have to cycle through them again to check if the program didn't mess up things at another major power on your side.

And I will take a piece of paper after everything is correct and write down where there are unused convoy points. During the stay at sea phase, I will manually select unused convoy points to go back to port if I want them to do so.

Also: do not to reload between preliminary production planning and the end of the production phase (building units), because sometimes reloading can make a mess out of things (not always). The same with looking at the production planning forms between the preliminary production phase and the final production phase. Why: I don't know.

[TeaLeaf]

I almost never come across problems during that phase.

That is a miracle, almost .
I must ask: do you, for example, lend a LOT of resources from CW to France during the start of a global gampaign?
I always run into major problems during the last turn(s) of France 's survival where we try to send ALL french BPs to the CW (since they are not going to do anything for France anymore). Especially when, like said before, Germany takes Paris.

I also still experience problems around certain US entry options. MWIF seems to mix/confuse CONVs of different nationalities, causing problems further in the pipelines. As soon as the USA is no longer neutral this is solved.
And I am certain this is not as simple as 'MWIF correctly enforcing the rules', because I know the rules and always check on beforehand who is going to be responsible for the CONVs after picking certain resource/lend lease US entry options.

And as said before, BP lend leasing is extremely bug-sensitive.
During my current game I could NOT lend any BP to Russia. After several hours of investigation I found out why (bug), so lucky me I was still in the Naval movement phase to bypass that problem.

[Centuur]

I almost never come across problems during that phase.

That is a miracle, almost .
I must ask: do you, for example, lend a LOT of resources from CW to France during the start of a global gampaign?
I always run into major problems during the last turn(s) of France 's survival where we try to send ALL french BPs to the CW (since they are not going to do anything for France anymore). Especially when, like said before, Germany takes Paris.

I also still experience problems around certain US entry options. MWIF seems to mix/confuse CONVs of different nationalities, causing problems further in the pipelines. As soon as the USA is no longer neutral this is solved.
And I am certain this is not as simple as 'MWIF correctly enforcing the rules', because I know the rules and always check on beforehand who is going to be responsible for the CONVs after picking certain resource/lend lease US entry options.

And as said before, BP lend leasing is extremely bug-sensitive.
During my current game I could NOT lend any BP to Russia. After several hours of investigation I found out why (bug), so lucky me I was still in the Naval movement phase to bypass that problem.

I would like to see a game save. Perhaps I can solve this problem for you.

[TeaLeaf]

Resource Lending.7z

(1.02 MiB) Downloaded 18 times

Here you go!

Steps to follow:
1. Delete the CW trade agreement with China (Japan just took Burma, so the Burmese oil can't be given anymore)
2. Modify the existing trade agreements to USSR so CW now sends 2 resources AND a BP, and/or try to open a NEW agreement with USSR so the USA sends a BP instead.
3. Open screen 'Production Planning' -> endless calculation starts.

Just make sure there are not enough convoys in place (yet) to the USSR to accomodate the transort of these BPs.
Under normal circumstances, the BPs should just be marked as 'lost' until enough convoys are put in place, but in this case I just see an endless calculation loop starting.

[TeaLeaf]

FYI,

I've played on past this bug; found a workaround.
You can ofc investigate the bug to make the game better .

If that's the case you may need to know it's a Lebensraum-campaign, played on 4.4.1 with a 3.2.0 exe.

[Centuur]

I will look at it this weekend (a little busy with work, this week...).

[rkr1958]

I almost never come across problems during that phase.

That is a miracle, almost .
I must ask: do you, for example, lend a LOT of resources from CW to France during the start of a global gampaign?
I always run into major problems during the last turn(s) of France 's survival where we try to send ALL french BPs to the CW (since they are not going to do anything for France anymore). Especially when, like said before, Germany takes Paris.

I also still experience problems around certain US entry options. MWIF seems to mix/confuse CONVs of different nationalities, causing problems further in the pipelines. As soon as the USA is no longer neutral this is solved.
And I am certain this is not as simple as 'MWIF correctly enforcing the rules', because I know the rules and always check on beforehand who is going to be responsible for the CONVs after picking certain resource/lend lease US entry options.

And as said before, BP lend leasing is extremely bug-sensitive.
During my current game I could NOT lend any BP to Russia. After several hours of investigation I found out why (bug), so lucky me I was still in the Naval movement phase to bypass that problem.

I workaround this problem handling trade agreements in two different ways. For those agreements that I know MWIF will handle ok, for example USA Oil to CW saved in Canada, I let MWIF handle. The other agreements such as BP lend lease or RPs I know MWIF will not route properly I handle those "off the books". Well, really on the books but outside of MWIF. I then just do the necessary edits during final production to account for these trades. The few minutes keeping track of these trades and do the edits in final production if a far improvement over the hours spent trying to get everything the way it should be or seeing suboptimum production and convoy routes.

[dyrn]

Hi again.

I have followed the discussions with great interest and tried some of the suggested solutions. Sometimes they seem to work, mostly though nothing happens and the CONV lines are left in shambles.

However, anyway you look at it, it is neither acceptable nor an expression of professionalism to let unfathomable gamemechanics decide the outcome of such a central issue as RES and PROD. I cannot understand why this issue have been left unattended for so many years. To me it seems more important that fiddling with AI.

I strongly urge the developers to prioritise the RES/PROD issue. For all practical purposes to me and some of my fellow gamers the game is unplayable. For quite a long time I have retained the game on my PC updating when available and tried a few rounds just to see if the issue have been solved. If not - well - lets wait it out - again. So far nothing really substantial has happend. Somehow it is hard to feel cheated once in a while. After all, the game isn't a give away.

Best regards and thank you for all advice until now.

[Centuur]

Resource Lending.7z Here you go!

Steps to follow:
1. Delete the CW trade agreement with China (Japan just took Burma, so the Burmese oil can't be given anymore)
2. Modify the existing trade agreements to USSR so CW now sends 2 resources AND a BP, and/or try to open a NEW agreement with USSR so the USA sends a BP instead.
3. Open screen 'Production Planning' -> endless calculation starts.

Just make sure there are not enough convoys in place (yet) to the USSR to accomodate the transort of these BPs.
Under normal circumstances, the BPs should just be marked as 'lost' until enough convoys are put in place, but in this case I just see an endless calculation loop starting.

This doesn't seem to be a windows zipped file. I cannot get it to run in MWIF.

[rkr1958]

Hi again.

I have followed the discussions with great interest and tried some of the suggested solutions. Sometimes they seem to work, mostly though nothing happens and the CONV lines are left in shambles.

However, anyway you look at it, it is neither acceptable nor an expression of professionalism to let unfathomable gamemechanics decide the outcome of such a central issue as RES and PROD. I cannot understand why this issue have been left unattended for so many years. To me it seems more important that fiddling with AI.

I strongly urge the developers to prioritise the RES/PROD issue. For all practical purposes to me and some of my fellow gamers the game is unplayable. For quite a long time I have retained the game on my PC updating when available and tried a few rounds just to see if the issue have been solved. If not - well - lets wait it out - again. So far nothing really substantial has happend. Somehow it is hard to feel cheated once in a while. After all, the game isn't a give away.

Best regards and thank you for all advice until now.

My honest opinion and assessment on this if I may.

I agree 100% with what you say. However; the reality is that what we have now is pretty much what we're going to have. With that said, MWIF is a good game in functionality, appearance and performance. Though, like you pointed out, or really what I'm inferring from what you pointed out, the whole production/convoy system is too clunky, hard to master and even if mastered can lead to sub optimum results. I know it's not ideal but my recommendation is; especially if you're a seasoned WIF player, learn a few game file editing skills, handle production "off-line" and edit the game file during final production to achieve what you believe you should achieve. Heck, if you play WIF in vassal or over the board you have to handle all of this and a heck of a lot more bookkeeping "off-line".

It's unfortunate that the "powers to be" over these many years felt that the production/convoy system and lack of player control was pretty much ok. My gut reaction is that this alone drove away the majority of folks. I'm a bit sad when I compare the activity and enthusiasm on this forum 10 to 15 years ago versus now. What a missed opportunity for both us (the faithful still around) and for Matix because MWIF IS a GOOD game but could have be a GREAT game. To quote Marlo Brando, "I (MWIF) could have been a contender".