[DB ISSUE] performance of SA-N-4b Gecko [

[Quark73]

I am wondering about performance of SA-N-4b Gecko [9M33M3] in "First Contact, 1986" scenario. While a single Peguine missile was almost certain death of an Osa class patrol boat in the 1973 scenario. The Nanuchka seems almost invinceble. Reason is the SA-N-4b on its two missile retractible launcher. Which seem to have quite an impressive performance. I've did a test attack with four norwegian patrol boats on four Nanuchkas with a distance between 10 and 15 nm. I attacked every boat with four Penguin missiles on each target to saturate the airdefence and did this five times. Result was I hit/sunk between 4/2 and 1/0 boats. While the Nanuchkas launched between 28 and 36 SA-N-4b. With 500 knt the Penguine needs 72 to 108 s to cover the distance. Minus OODA 31 s (15 s detect & 16 s targeting (Ace)) the ZIF-122 twin missile launcher manages to launch and reload the misslies every 10 s. Without wishing to offend the Soviet 70s engineering art I don't think this is possible. In my opionion a reload cycle of at least 5 minutes is more realistic to retract, load, lock, electrically connect and extend again.
Is this intetional to make the scenario more difficult or is it a general failure in the DB?

[Dimitris]

Quick-draw comment before seeing the save:

5 mins sounds waaaaaaaaay too long. The SA-N-4 twin launcher was expressly designed for quick (automated) reload.

As a point of reference/comparison, the truck-mounted Roland could reload both launcher arms (from the rotary mags on the truck) within a few seconds.

[Quark73]

The five minutes were based on a source concerning the 6 missile container of the army variant. In between I, ve found a source that mentioned 2 launches a minute. Which makes six missiles in the first minute and four per minute subsequently. Not considering that target aquisition and tracking needs time too.

[CV60]

The major limitation of the SA-N-4 is the POP GROUP Fire Control radar, which can only guide one missile at a time. Reload time was 16-21 seconds (https://weaponsystems.net/system/464-M-4%20Osa-M) . Assuming a 500 knt Penguin missile, that means it will spend 57 seconds within the SA-N-4's 8nm engagement envelope. This allows each POP GROUP to engage at least 2, and most likely 3 times (remember, the launcher can be loading even while the POP GROUP is guiding). Assuming the 2-armed launcher fires both missiles at a single target, the launcher should be reloading while the missiles are airborne. Given the Penguin is a non-manuvering missile, it should be relatively easy to hit. You noted that the "ZIF-122 twin missile launcher manages to launch and reload the misslies every 10 s", so that does appear to be quicker than the data source I provided. YOu may want to put in an database correction on that.

[Dimitris]

I assume your source for the 5-min reload is Wikipedia? : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa#Missiles

Time to prepare for engagements from being in transit is around 4 minutes and missile reloading takes around 5 minutes. Each battery of four TELARs is usually accompanied by two reload vehicles carrying 18 missiles in sets of three, with a crane mounted on the reload vehicles to assist in moving the missiles.

...which is correct for the army version, as the reload process there is crane-assisted manual labor. ZIF-122, the naval twin launcher, is a hands-off automatic system.

Current relevant stats in the DBs:

CWDB:


DB3K:


Mount-mag ROF is currently 6, ie. it takes 12 seconds to reload both missiles.

I've added a request to bump this to 16-21sec as per CV60's source: https://github.com/PygmalionOfCyprus/cm ... ssues/2701

Feel free to submit any additional sources on that ticket.