SA-21B Range

[captainwolf]

So I am running build 1303.1, and I am confused by the difference between the max range listed in the database, and how the performance against an F-35C is in testing.

SAM: SA-21a/b Growler [S-400E Triumf])
Target Aircraft: F-35C Lightning II

The SA-21B has a listed range of 215 nm max, yet I have been managing to get it to run out of energy as close as about 30-35 nm from the launcher by manually controlling an F-35, flying perpendicular to the incoming missile before the fighter starts defending and flying away from the missile. Is this expected behavior? Is the 215 nm range the sort of attack where the target has to fly in a straight line the entire time the missile is approaching with a huge lofted trajectory?

[KnightHawk75]

A get similar results in 1303+db3k489a, 21b's don't even seem to be able to get to my 50k alt even at close range before falling out of the sky, fuel burn never gets them up to full speed either and seems way to short, db say 20 seconds (and 10 for the sa21a's) it it does burn for that long in boost-coast, but seem too big a nerf, where a lazy turn or two at military speed = easy evasion at 35\40nm. This is also effecting it's dlz launch conditions it seems to similar nm ranges.

[Dimitris]

Something important is missing from both these reports.

[BDukes]

HI

Look like a couple of wonky things.

Load save files (2 is the after shot). You can see the SA-21b engage until it hits a range then flies up.

Anything after is out of DLZ (screenshot).

Files attached.

SA-21BDLZ.JPG (297.7 KiB) Viewed 1014 times

[KnightHawk75]

Something important is missing from both these reports.

True/fair.

sa21b_burnsoutprettyearly_F.zip

(32.17 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

Repo:
Load attached scene.
Play side b... or a, I guess your choice.
Press play at 1 or 2x ...watch the f35, then watch the b-1b which is even more interesting imho.
I get that the grave stone may lose track (even though I never see it actually ever obtain it in the first place in sensor contact tracking list for f35) probably around this range on the f35, but still weird how even when it still has bit of momentum left it just goes poof and doesn't even go active itself like they used too in old model. Also if that's the case the b1 is tracked the whole time and does more or less same thing, and then for me does weird wiggle wiggle thing toward the end.

[bsq]

Knighthawk75

There's so much 'wrong' in your save.
The fits are all over the place.
There is a Gravestone on the A-100
There is a Gravestone and a Cheeseboard on the aerostat
There are a myriad of radars with the S-400 that are duplicates or belong to other systems

The firing Gravestone never paints the F-35A, not sure where the solution came from but its not something I would recognise as valid

[bsq]

BDukes

Save one

I wait till the Gravestone paints the F-35, then conduct Shoot/Shoot/Look (not WRA but Russian doctrine) and the F-35A is taken out at about 12.5nm range (initial detection at around 16.5nm) - I recognise this

Save two

Missile is being controlled by what? The Cheeseboard is painting the F-35A at 85 nm ( ). The Gravestone cant see it.
The missile is told to go 'seek and destroy' (by what?). 4 seconds later it appears to detonate seduced by a towed decoy (Ok), whilst in front of the F-35A (not OK).

Two issues then in save 2. What is providing a TQ track on the F-35A at 5 times the range the TER can paint the target even telling it to go active whilst it cant see it. How does a towed decoy defeat a head on shot, whilst the missile is still in bound.

[BDukes]

BDukes

Save one

I wait till the Gravestone paints the F-35, then conduct Shoot/Shoot/Look (not WRA but Russian doctrine) and the F-35A is taken out at about 12.5nm range (initial detection at around 16.5nm) - I recognise this

Save two

Missile is being controlled by what? The Cheeseboard is painting the F-35A at 85 nm ( ). The Gravestone cant see it.
The missile is told to go 'seek and destroy' (by what?). 4 seconds later it appears to detonate seduced by a towed decoy (Ok), whilst in front of the F-35A (not OK).

Two issues then in save 2. What is providing a TQ track on the F-35A at 5 times the range the TER can paint the target even telling it to go active whilst it cant see it. How does a towed decoy defeat a head on shot, whilst the missile is still in bound.

Ai Captain Ahab. Devs..all yours. Let's Harpoon this whale

M

[KnightHawk75]

Knighthawk75

There's so much 'wrong' in your save.
The fits are all over the place.
There is a Gravestone on the A-100
There is a Gravestone and a Cheeseboard on the aerostat
There are a myriad of radars with the S-400 that are duplicates or belong to other systems

The firing Gravestone never paints the F-35A, not sure where the solution came from but its not something I would recognise as valid

You damn right there there are as I put them all there investigating other things (new feature of groups supposedly being able to sharing groupmember comms - unrelated to to sa21b range\easy evasion). None of it takes away from op's topic, and what the scene highlights, go ahead a press delete on them (areo and a100 if it bothers you) it doesn't change anything.

[bsq]

Looking again at this, I am wondering whether this is a very accurately modelled issue.

Cheeseboard has neither the angular, nor range resolution for fine grain tracking - thats not what its designed for. The aircraft are outside the range of the Grave Stone (they have a very small RCS in that band). The launch then is on the much poorer quality track provided by the other radars. As it approaches where it thinks the target it, it realises that it is not where it needs to be and begins a rapid turn, bleeding off the energy, especially bad in this geometry because its flight profile is direct ascent, not loft and dive. It has less speed to start with, bleeds it off faster than it would on the more efficient (long range) profile and runs out of energy at a much shorter range. The profile appears to be some form of direct ascent and either a very poor attempt at CLOS or, worse, a curved pursuit.

No idea if this is modelled, but it is what the missile seems to fly as opposed to the longer ranged shots and would certainly explain what you are seeing. If this is shown to be the case, then thumbs up from me as this is pretty much how a lot of these systems work and, incidentally, shows that the wrong missile was used for the intercept which is one reason IRL why these systems now have several types of missiles, all with varied guidance and flight profile options.

***EDIT***

BTW, delete all the radars you have added as extras, then either turn off or delete the Cheeseboard, then see what happens The Grave Stone never sees the target. That in itself would result in a miss (or in this case no firing).