SdKfz 251/16 of no use

[Wiedrock]

Currently it appears that the SdKfz 251/16 (Flamethrower) is of no use.
This may be related to similar issues like my last post concerning the Hvy MG Section 43.

There is some Panzerpioneer Flamer-Section how it'd look like:

kstn1108a(gp)1apr43.png (88.81 KiB) Viewed 826 times

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11301aug43.htm


I count 3*6 APC Flamethrowers in this version of the Panzerdivision 43:

PzDiv43.png (1.41 MiB) Viewed 826 times

Note that I don't know wether this is the "perfect" document/version but I guess it shows the possible usage. Source
Further Note: 2*6 are supposd to be Engineers, I have no idea what the other 6x inside the "Regiments Stabskompanie (gepanzert)" actually looked like, I did not manage to find a appropriate KstN.
The top-left red circle would/could look like this https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11181apr44.htm (you need to scroll down for the armored (gp = gepanzert) version!



Some ingame example from starting a "Vistula to Berlin" on 1.02.51.

251-16 production.png (898.19 KiB) Viewed 826 times

[Great_Ajax]

The Sdkfz 251/16s and Flamm Panzers are another victim of limited Ground Element slots in an OB entry. OB entries are capped at 32 Ground Elements so some compromises have to be made. The 251/16s are represented in the Tier 1 Panzer Divisions and the Flammpanzers are also represented in the Tier 2 Panzer Divisions. Even though there was a published TO&E for Panzer Divisions, the actual divisions often looked very different. Some units didn't have an armored panzergrenadier battalion. Some units never received 120mm Mortars, Flammpanzers or 251/16s. For this reason, we have gone away from a standard panzer division TO&E and divided them into four different tiers to allow for more variety in equipment. You could literally make a unique OB for every panzer division.

Tier 1 - These are divisions that received the latest and best equipment

Tier 2 - more standard type divisions

Tier 3 - Panzer Divisions that fielded StuGs as part of their Panzer Regiment

Tier 4 - Panzer Divisions that lagged behind in fielding the latest equipment. Often had older panzers, limited availability of armored panzergrenadiers, etc.

Here is an example of the OB limitations and compromises by comparing the actual TO&E of the LAH SS Panzer Division in October 1943 and the resulting WitE OB entry.

43 LAH SS Panzer Division Actual (Oct 43):

139 x Mot. Rifle Squad
27 x Panzergrenadier Squad
36 x Pioneer Squad
27 x Panzerpioneer Squad
18 x Panzer Recon Section
52 x Mot. Recon Section
21 x Motorcycle Squad
162 x 7.92 HMG
42 x 81mm Mortar
36 x 120mm Mortar
8 x 251/2 Mortar
2 x 250/7 Mortar
18 x 75mm Infantry Gun
10 x 150mm Infantry Gun
6 x 251/9
12 x 150mm SP Infantry Gun
6 x 7.92mm Anti-Tank Rifle
27 x 50mm Anti-Tank Gun
18 x 75mm Anti-Tank Gun
13 x 251/10
3 x 250/10
3 x 250/11
34 x SP 75mm Anti-Tank
35 x Stug lg
9 x 20mm AA
12 x 88m AA
24 x SP 20mm AA
18 x SP Quad 20mm AA
18 x SP 37mm AA
4 x 105mm Field Gun
12 x 105mm Howitzer
12 x 150mm Howitzer
12 x 150mm Nebelwerfer
12 x Wespe
6 x Hummel
16 x Sdkfz 222
6 x Sdkfz 223
3 x Sdkfz 231
5 x Sdkfz 232
6 x 251/16
7 x Flammpanzer
101 x PzIV lg
99 x Panther
28 x Tiger I
Support Squads

45 Total Ground Elements

43 LAH SS Panzer Division WitE OB (Oct 43):

139 x Mot. Rifle Squad
27 x Panzergrenadier Squad
36 x Pioneer Squad
27 x Panzerpioneer Squad
18 x Panzer Recon Section
52 x Mot. Recon Section
21 x Motorcycle Squad (removed)
162 x 7.92 HMG
42 x 81mm Mortar
36 x 120mm Mortar
8 x 251/2 Mortar (combined w/250/7)
2 x 250/7 Mortar (removed)
18 x 75mm Infantry Gun
10 x 150mm Infantry Gun
6 x 251/9
12 x 150mm SP Infantry Gun
6 x 7.92mm Anti-Tank Rifle (removed)
27 x 50mm Anti-Tank Gun
18 x 75mm Anti-Tank Gun
13 x 251/10 (removed)
3 x 250/10 (removed)
3 x 250/11 (removed)
34 x SP 75mm Anti-Tank
35 x Stug lg
9 x 20mm AA (removed)
12 x 88m AA
24 x SP 20mm AA (combined w/SP Quad 20mm)
18 x SP Quad 20mm AA (removed)
18 x SP 37mm AA
4 x 105mm Field Gun (removed)
12 x 105mm Howitzer (combined with 105mm Field Gun)
12 x 150mm Howitzer
12 x 150mm Nebelwerfer
12 x Wespe
6 x Hummel
16 x Sdkfz 222 (replaced by 16 x Sdkfz 234/2 and 16 x Sdkfz 250/9)
6 x Sdkfz 223 (removed)
3 x Sdkfz 231 (removed)
5 x Sdkfz 232 (removed)
6 x 251/16 (removed)
7 x Flammpanzer (removed)
101 x PzIV lg
99 x Panther
28 x Tiger I
Support Squads

[Wiedrock]

Thanks for that all encompassing reply.

In my Flame Tank post i argued/suggested to do separate SUs for those elements, directly attached to the Divisions. I know this is a "Game on Divisional Level", but what makes a Division a Division is differerent comparing countries and added to this there is the "3 units per Hex"-Rule which frequently pops up in the Forum or in Discord, where people complain about huge Soviet Corps stacking vs. GE Division stacking. And seeing Divisions being cut by several elements adds on top of this, losing even more firepower/utility.

Wouldn't it therefore be an idea to outsource some of the Elements of Divisions into directly attached SUs?

examples:

1. outsourcing whole Regiments
2. outsourcing all "Staff elements" (Divisional-, Regimental-, Battalion-Staff combined in one SU)
3. outsourcing special battalions (recon, panzerjäger, engineer - or combined-outsource them)
4. outsourcing straight all mortar/artillery
5. outsourcing everything that just doesn't fit

There may be issues when "splitting a Division into three" or playing multiplayer (rule had to be made to not stack those new SUs outside it's original division). As far as I've seen you can only lock theatre boxes, don't know wether this would be possible to expand to a Divisional SU lock altough I dont see this as necessary.

I once again ended up making this a Suggestion-Thread, sry about that.

[Great_Ajax]

We discussed in the past the possibility of making the Panzer Aufklarungs Battalions as SUs attached to their parent panzer divisions. The PzAufklarungs Battalions have a wide variety of equipment that would free up enough slots for the remainder of the division. Its an idea that would take a lot of work as every scenario would require every panzer division to be rebuilt. My focus right now is implementing the new OB 2.0 file which is already going to take months to get ready already.

[Wiedrock]

Outsourcing the Aufklärer sounds like a good idea for the far, far future maybe. Unfortunately everyones time is limited, looking forward to the new OOB .

[Wiedrock]

Here is an example of the OB limitations and compromises by comparing the actual TO&E of the LAH SS Panzer Division in October 1943 and the resulting WitE OB entry.

43 LAH SS Panzer Division Actual (Oct 43):

139 x Mot. Rifle Squad
27 x Panzergrenadier Squad
36 x Pioneer Squad
27 x Panzerpioneer Squad
18 x Panzer Recon Section
52 x Mot. Recon Section
21 x Motorcycle Squad

[...]

43 LAH SS Panzer Division WitE OB (Oct 43):

139 x Mot. Rifle Squad
27 x Panzergrenadier Squad
36 x Pioneer Squad
27 x Panzerpioneer Squad
18 x Panzer Recon Section
52 x Mot. Recon Section
21 x Motorcycle Squad (removed)

I am currently looking into some of the 32slots units and remembered this Thread.
Were the 21x12Men Motorcyclists already included in the "normal" numbers of other elements or did you replace their manpower by support squads?