Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

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Wiedrock
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Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Wiedrock »

Since some Soviet players were "complaining" about not having any Supply issues I wondered why. First of all, I encountered Soviet Tanks usually having a lower Ammo Use than German Panzers, but this may be part of another post... While figuring out some numbers I encountered some weirdness in Tank Ammo Needs.

I can completely "reproduce" the Ammo/Need for German Divisions.
There it is:
((Element1*AmmoUse1)+(Element2*AmmoUse2)....)/66,666
I figured that out in Editor GC. This I can fully reporduce until T41 in 1942, as can be seen in the second Picture.
For some reason the divisor for Soviets is 166,666.
Tanks_T1.png
Tanks_T1.png (710.33 KiB) Viewed 1150 times
T41_Pzdiv.png
T41_Pzdiv.png (478.34 KiB) Viewed 1150 times

The question now is, why that Soviet tanks have a divisor of 166,666 instead of that German 66,6666 on Ammo Need!!!

So I asked about Soviet Ammo-buffs/debuffs and Joel replied:
Joel Billings wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:48 pm 23.6.3. SovIEt ARtILLERY LIMItAtIoNS Before 1944, Soviet artillery and rocket ground elements (i.e. both those in units and specialist Support Units) will have a notional requirement for only 60% of their ammunition needs. In turn, this will reduce the rate of fire. Units reporting (directly or indirectly) to a Front set to Assault Status (21.11.2) will have a notional requirement for 90% of their ammunition.
Okay, now how does that 60% add up with my 166,666???

Doing some shenanigans with my calc I encountered that 66,6666 is 40% of 166,666.
So I went to look at some Soviet numbers again and it appears that German numbers*0,4=Soviet Ammo need, as can be seen here.
Soviet_T1_Tank_40percent.png
Soviet_T1_Tank_40percent.png (359.6 KiB) Viewed 1150 times
Further attached is a reproduction of a Soviet T41 unit. This isn't perfect since I have no idea which element gets which multiplier, but it should be able to show the tendencie of this whole topic where Soviet units require way less freight/Ammo than german Divisions.
soviet_T41_grain-of-salt.png
soviet_T41_grain-of-salt.png (303.85 KiB) Viewed 1150 times
I may be wrong about that, but something is wrong concerning Soviet Ammo Need-values. If I am wrong pls let me know the math and/or where to find the rule-set stating more than the rule-set which Joel shared.
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Joel Billings
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Joel Billings »

So did it work out that the Soviets have 60% of the need for guns, and 40% for AFVs (until turn 41 for the other elements)? It could be that there's some code in to do just that to account for Soviet early logistics issues with Soviet armored elements. If you set to 1.0 all the non gun, non AFV elements, I think you come out at the right need value for the Soviet unit at the bottom of your post.
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by K62_ »

Wiedrock wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:39 pm
Doing some shenanigans with my calc I encountered that 66,6666 is 40% of 166,666.
So I went to look at some Soviet numbers again and it appears that German numbers*0,4=Soviet Ammo need, as can be seen here.

Further attached is a reproduction of a Soviet T41 unit. This isn't perfect since I have no idea which element gets which multiplier, but it should be able to show the tendencie of this whole topic where Soviet units require way less freight/Ammo than german Divisions.
That's pretty impressive work! How do you create those thousand-tank units in the editor?
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Denniss »

Per that rule in the manual only artillery shoud be affected by the .6 multiplier in ammo need so why is this extended to other classes with a far lower multiplier?
How is the soviet ammo need calculated for 1941?
I assume the ammo need multiplier also affects rate of fire by the same multiplier? Is this verified to be working?
the manual section should be updated to clarify this RoF reduction

Does this at least partially explain the lower supply requirements soviet units have vs similar Axis units?
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Rexzapper »

Wow, amazing. It seemed obvious that the Soviet units were less reliant in ammo/supply than the Axis... but I didn't expect them to only use 40%. Of course, this was not documented at all.
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Wiedrock »

Joel Billings wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:55 pm So did it work out that the Soviets have 60% of the need for guns, and 40% for AFVs (until turn 41 for the other elements)? It could be that there's some code in to do just that to account for Soviet early logistics issues with Soviet armored elements. If you set to 1.0 all the non gun, non AFV elements, I think you come out at the right need value for the Soviet unit at the bottom of your post.
Okay. Let's start it that way.
I am using the divisor of 66,666 from the German side as a base for all of this.
I looked at every single element in the editor and how it behaves early on. And since Artillery is special I tried reproducing it's numbers.
  • Infantry = *1
  • Armor/AA/Guns = *0,4
  • Artillery -> NOT *0,6 - it DIFFERS!!!
T41_Soviet.png
T41_Soviet.png (50.03 KiB) Viewed 1071 times
Using the 60% modifier for artillery in this T41 example gives the correct numbers. So that' seems fine. BUT ....
Artillery has several switching/alternating modfiers not mentioned in the manual (afaik).
I figured that out with normal on map Divisions, but for the sake of ease I will use Artillery-SUs to clarify with pictures for people to not see that many numbers at once.

Turn 1-15

Code: Select all

(((Element1*AmmoUse1)+(Element2*AmmoUse2)....)/66,666)*0,4*0,5
So basically *0,2, so 20%
switch_T15-T16.png
switch_T15-T16.png (487.07 KiB) Viewed 1071 times
Turn 16-28 (End of '41)

Code: Select all

(((Element1*AmmoUse1)+(Element2*AmmoUse2)....)/66,666)*0,4*0,5*0,6
So basically *0,12
switch_T28-T29.png
switch_T28-T29.png (433.38 KiB) Viewed 1071 times
Turn 29 (start of '42)- +++ (1944?)

Code: Select all

(((Element1*AmmoUse1)+(Element2*AmmoUse2)....)/66,666)*0,4*0,6
So basically *0,24
Turn ...YY-...ZZZ

Code: Select all

(((Element1*AmmoUse1)+(Element2*AmmoUse2)....)/66,666)*0,6
So basically *0,6 which is the 60% stated in the manual.
...not seen this multiplier separately (taking German numbers as a base) without further *0,4 being added

Additional, someone in Discord shared his numbers for comparison ArtillerySU vs ArtillerySU-ASSAULT. There this "case 2" indicates that the Assault status is "erasing" the *0,6-modifier.
Normal_vs_Assault_March41.png
Normal_vs_Assault_March41.png (287.3 KiB) Viewed 1071 times

I am not sure wether I have missed some weather or winter rules which may be causing this switcheridoo. If so, let me know which rules there are.
It also would be nice if someone could doublecheck or at least compare it's units Ammo-Need-values between those turns where the changes happen in some savegames to verify the dates at least (I guess Artillery-SU's should be the easiest way to see).

I can't give any statement on how this plays out balancing wise or wether those multipliers/lower ammo actually affects combat as intended/suggested.

Denniss wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:13 pm I assume the ammo need multiplier also affects rate of fire by the same multiplier? Is this verified to be working?
I'd like to verify, but I am still busy digging into the Armor Penetration topic to one day possibly be able to clarify that a armor pen of 6mm for a 37mm or 4mm for a 30mm Cannon aren't correct. Since 3000 Sorties from uncontested/un-AA'ed Ju 87G's are supposed to kill tanks and not just grind off rust.
K62 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:49 pm How do you create those thousand-tank units in the editor?
I change the TOE the unit is using to what I want, click "rebuild" then "resupply".
Rexzapper wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:11 pm It seemed obvious that the Soviet units were less reliant in ammo/supply than the Axis... but I didn't expect them to only use 40%. Of course, this was not documented at all.
Seems like only Ammo is impacted, Supply and Fuel are the same (from what my brain has realized so far).
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by FortTell »

I can confirm the changes to Ammo need for Soviet artillery (well, Katusha regiments, seeing as they are the easiest to observe, having a single combat element which is not in TOE of on-map units):

Early 41 (before T16)
* non-assault front Katusha shoots <no data> FPE in attack and the unit wants 32 tons of ammo
* assault front Katusha shoots <no data> FPE in attack and the unit wants <no data> tons of ammo

Late 41 (T16 and after)
* non-assault front Katusha shoots 1.8-2.2 FPE in attack and the unit wants 18 tons of ammo
* assault front Katusha shoots 4.1-5.0 FPE in attack and the unit wants 27 tons of ammo

42 (T29 and after)
* non-assault front Katusha shoots 3.5-4.6 FPE in attack and the unit wants 37 tons of ammo
* assault front Katusha shoots 7.7-10.2 FPE in attack and the unit wants 54 tons of ammo

Results:
* T16-end of 41 debuff exists and is roughly a 0.6x multiplier to ammo need
* 42 ammo use is a bit more than early 41 and looks like a 2x multiplier on top of the earlier 0.6x
* Assault front modifier works as advertised in the manual (1.5x increase corresponds to 60 -> 90% written in the manual)
* Assault front is also magic, getting 2x FPE for 1.5x ammo
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Stamb »

Wiedrock has more examples, but refuses to post them, so i will do :)

As far as i understand he did some unit conversion, assuming that German unit does not have any penalties and its ammo need is 100%. Then Soviet unit in 1941 will have only 20% of what German unit requires. Which is far off of the manual claims :cry:
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by K62_ »

Looking at an AI vs AI game, there are undocumented sudden jumps of 25% in overall Soviet need for ammo in units on Jan 1, 1942 and Jan 1, 1943. In some cases, this causes the CV to drop since the unit no longer has full ammo:
Ammo need increase 1943.png
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by M60A3TTS »

It isn't just ammo required. More ammo means more trucks required. That means not only CV can drop but movement too if the Red Army goes into a vehicle deficit. Then the player is waiting on increased Lend Lease to make up for it, meaning there isn't so much adding of vehicle intensive units.
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Wiedrock »

M60A3TTS wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:30 am It isn't just ammo required. More ammo means more trucks required. That means not only CV can drop but movement too if the Red Army goes into a vehicle deficit. Then the player is waiting on increased Lend Lease to make up for it, meaning there isn't so much adding of vehicle intensive units.
Soviets also have reduced vehicle needs, Supply needs, Support Needs, on top of the reduced ammo. Hence you have Soviets in Winter 41 with 139k (136k) Truck needs fullfilled - and as you mentioned - no limited movement by too little trucks.
I am sure Gary made it so that numbers are somewhat historical/make sense.

But what may not be able to cope with this is the overall Rail Network/Freight system which seems to quickly store freight, especially earlier one, since it's the same system being used to later supply much larger/supply consuming Armies - and the same supplying German Armies without any "less need/less consumption"-modifiers.

Suggestions like "Supply doesn't matter" (for the Soviets) and one can/should "put the Red Army on Supply priority 4 instantly" may be possible/related to all of this. So all those modifiers making the consumption per move/fight lower while also having (for the most part) shorter delivery ways of freight (NSS-Frontline). If you consume less, you need less Trucks moving, so less freight gets lost, so the same Rail System can support more troops.
Hence you have Soviet Depots quicky filling up with stored freight.

Attached some numbers on Soviets Trucks - while we're at it.
some history and some Winter 41 example.
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Trucks Winter 41.png
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Joel Billings »

I can contribute that Pavel found code that starting October 1941 and through the end of 1943, some specific Soviet artillery, rocket and flak ground type weapons have a 60% ammo need. This is multiplied by 1.5 if in an assault HQ that is meeting all the range/overload requirements. Using the editor and building units is probably the best way to find out what's up in the game re all these needs. It's likely WAD, but impossible at this point for me to document.
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by M60A3TTS »

Joel Billings wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:14 pm I can contribute that Pavel found code that starting October 1941 and through the end of 1943, some specific Soviet artillery, rocket and flak ground type weapons have a 60% ammo need. This is multiplied by 1.5 if in an assault HQ that is meeting all the range/overload requirements. Using the editor and building units is probably the best way to find out what's up in the game re all these needs. It's likely WAD, but impossible at this point for me to document.
Joel, I think you stumbled onto the answer, having checked my saves from the game with jubjub. The Soviet artillery malus effects documented in the manual beginning in 1943 has been reduced from 60% need to 90% on a non assault front HQ. So instead of a Soviet 36-gun 1941Army Artillery Regiment needing 48 tons in 1942, it now needs 72 tons in 1943. For an assault front HQ the malus has also changed, effectively gone now with the same unit's ammo requirements from 72 in 1942 to 137.5% of need to 110. This impacts all artillery elements, not just support units which is why a whole bunch of Soviet units now need more ammo and trucks everywhere starting in 1943. Somehow the code you mentioned has been changed/overridden.
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Stamb »

Do they fire/hit more with higher ammo requirements?
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by gingerbread »

Think of need as reported (to Quartermaster) need, perhaps draw is a better term.

Soviets will not draw and will therefore not recieve full ammo complement. That will lead to some firing rolls failing due to low ammo, which is the intended effect.
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Re: Ammo/Need - Axis vs Soviets

Post by Wiedrock »

EDIT: Beta 1.04.10 tackled the topic of the Soviet Ammo Modifiers and brought a fix to the Medium Filed Guns not being affected by the Modifiers and it increased the Ammo for Soviet Rockets in the earlier years. The changes on that I (so far) have only added to the picture (see the yellow bordered "windows").
MaximKI wrote: Thu May 15, 2025 2:48 pm [...]

V1.04.10 – 25th July 2025
New Features and Rule Changes
[...]
• Undocumented formulas and game change – In addition to the Soviet artillery 60% ammo need modification noted in section 23.6.3, there are additional, multiple, undocumented ammo need reductions for various Soviet ground element types (they are cumulative for types impacted by more than one reduction). One of the undocumented modifiers reduces various Soviet rocket ground types, with greater reductions in early years. In this version we have lowered the impact of these reductions in 1941-1943, so you will see slightly higher Soviet rocket needs in 1941-43 than in the past. Also, note that the ground elements impacted by the 60% Soviet artillery ammo need are ground types 8, 9, 21, 22, 31, 32, 34, 39, 45, 46, 55, 56, 58, 62, 82, 84, 85, 86, 90, which includes medium and heavy flak. This 60% need modifier begins in October 1941 and ends at the start of 1944. During this time units attached to Soviet Fronts set to Assault Status have a 90% need modifier, instead of the normal 60% need modifier.
[...]

Due to issues with the Rocket Launchers I've revisited this topic. I only looked at Artillery, Heavy Artillery, Ligth Artillery, Medium Field Guns, Rockets and AT-Guns.
Tanks, Armored Cars and Tank Destroyers ("SU"s) seem to stay at the "initial/initial-modified" modifiers only, so not considered Artillery (but only glanced over them).
Mortars similar, does not seem to get affected by the additional x0,6 starting from T16+. While the Light Mortars (~50mm) are not getting any negative Ammo Modifier (as Infantry does not).
Living Manual 1.29, p.415 wrote:23.6.3. Soviet Artillery Limitations
Before 1944, Soviet artillery and rocket ground elements (i.e. both those in units and
specialist Support Units) will have a notional requirement for only 60% of their
ammunition needs
. In turn, this will reduce the rate of fire.
Units reporting (directly or indirectly) to a Front set to Assault Status (21.11.2) will
have a notional requirement for 90% of their ammunition.
Living Manual 1.29, p.372f wrote:21.11.2. Assault HQs
[...]
All the units that report (directly and indirectly) to an
Assault HQs are affected by the following changes:
[...]
• Soviet artillery gain 50% extra ammunition (before 1944) compared to the
normal rules;
  • Rocket Launchers do always have a x0,2 modifier on Ammo Needs.
  • Soviets initially have a x0,2 Modifier on all types of Artillery/Guns/Tanks/Mortars/Flak...
  • Soviet Artillery from T16(05.10.1941) to T32(26.12.1943) have an additional x0,6 Modifier (that's the one mentioned in the Manual) which gets removed in Januar 1944.
  • Being in an ASSAULT Front makes the x0,6 into x0,9 (so x1,5="50% extra ammunition").
    Note that ASSAULT causes CPP to be gained twice as fast - CPP impacts Artillery performance slightly - on both offense and defence.

Soviet Artillery Ammo Needs ...as percentage of German Artillery
Note: Medium Field Guns are not considered Artillery in this. Mortars (80mm medium/120mm heavy) seem not to be considered Artillery in this context either. Rocket Artillery is Artillery and always gets an additional x0,2 for being Rocket.
  1. 1941 T1-T15
    → So Soviet Artillery will have x0,2=20% of German Ammo, up until end of T15
    → ASSAULT: no difference
  2. 1941 T16-T28 new modifier of x0,6 added on top
    → So Soviet Artillery will have x0,2x0,6=12% of German Ammo, up until end of T28
    → ASSAULT: 18%
  3. 1942 T29+ the initial x0,2 gets doubled (x2) to x0,4
    → So Soviet Artillery will have x0,4x0,6=24% of German Ammo starting from 1942
    → ASSAULT: 36%
  4. 1943 T81+ the initial x0,2 becomes x0,6 (or x3)
    → So Soviet Artillery will have x0,6x0,6=36% of German Ammo starting from 1943
    → ASSAULT: 54%
  5. 1944 T133+ the initial x0,2 becomes x0,8 (or x4), the x0,6 from T16 onwards is removed (see manual quote)
    → So Soviet Artillery will have x0,8=80% of German Ammo starting from 1944
    → ASSAULT: no difference - from this point onwards only the other bonuses of ASSAULT HQs are left (e.g. CPP gain, better Admin rolls ...)
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