Panzer Grenadier Squad lower CV than common Rifle Squad

[Wiedrock]

I am not sure if it's an issue or intended/WAD Mechanized nerv or me missing something. But for some reason the Panzergenadiers have less CV than the common rifle squad although being more men (yes there may be a crew of ~2 guys for the APC) and having a higher base CV for their Mech-Inf Squad.

I am aware thay they may perform better in combat, but the CV should represent this and the numbers (TypeCV & Men) speak for being so.

Tested in editor Live Game version 1.02.52 Steam.

[Jango32]

Same speed too.

[Wiedrock]

Same speed too.

I've complained about speed in this post already, but I so far failed to see/test/proove wether it would actually have an "visible" impact.
Same goes for Cav and Motorized.

[DarkHorse2]

Speed is a weird tactical mechanic, it appears.

When reviewing game-data, I hardly found any inf-based ground element that exceeded a speed of 6.

I would have thought that, perhaps, Cav or motor-cycle troops would enjoy a speed boost, but no.

Since Matrix has not been very forthcoming in sharing the details of how these values relate to the tactical combat system, it is not conclusive that speed is even being used.

[DarkHorse2]

The true mechanized troops (as far as actually using APCs) were the best of the best of the Wehrmact infantry forces, being only rivaled by, perhaps, mechanized pioneers.

They should enjoy a better CV value than their basic Rifle squad counterparts. More equipment, better weapons, better training. The manual seems to support this as well by giving them a CV of 4, vs CV of 3 for the basic Rifle squad.

The game-data confirms the CV of 4 too. What is truly confusing is why is this not being reflected in the CV totals of the units that employ the panzer grenadier squads

[Joel Billings]

This will require a dive into the formulas. In a quick look, Gary did find some code that was added years ago that halves the CV value of various lightly armored and/or open top vehicles. That appears to be impacting the Mech infantry, and we confirm that, we'll make sure we make sure the modifier is not impacting them. However, this still doesn't explain all of what you are seeing. AFAIK, the number of men in the unit does not impact the CV value. Thanks for the report.

[Wiedrock]

I've run into the issue(s) yet again.

I'll start with the Manpower so the Forumla for the Mech-Inf is explained already.

1. Men per Squad impact on Squads CV

the number of men in the unit does not impact the CV value.

It does.

men-affecting-CV.png (677.93 KiB) Viewed 1191 times

10 men is the base, so a Squad with 10Men has 3CV.
12Men CV is 3*1.2=3.6
9Men CV is 3*0.9=2.7
...and so on.

Formula seems to be "(CV*Men/10)"= CV of one of those Squad elements.

2. Mech-Inf Squad CV is lower than the CV of a normal Inf Squad.

In a quick look, Gary did find some code that was added years ago that halves the CV value of various lightly armored and/or open top vehicles. That appears to be impacting the Mech infantry, and we confirm that, we'll make sure we make sure the modifier is not impacting them.

The Division by /2 (or multiplyer of x0.5) is still present and affects Mech-Inf Squads. Whether WAD or not I can not tell, since as pointed out, the Mech-Inf-Squad this way has less CV than a normal Footsolder Squad!!!

Mech-Inf-worse-than-inf.png (523.42 KiB) Viewed 1191 times

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In topic one I've changed to 12Men squad so the second example would be more obvious.
The normal 12Men Squad has a CV of 180, while the Mech-Inf Squad with 12Men has a CV of 120.
This we achieve by

• multiplying the normal Squads CV by 1.333333(difference between 3CV and 4CV) and
• dividing by /2 (multiplier in the formula).
• So we get 120CV.

Easier to achieve this is by just using 2 as a CV for each Mech-Inf Squad,.....but why making things easy?


Conclusion:
I hope this underlines the points I made many months ago and you can figure out what about this is rly WAD or just some side effect of another issue.

1. Topic one I consider okay, up to better than if not, but it'd need some clarification in the Manual!
   Topic two I consider weird, up to rly bad and rly needs to be looked at!

[Joel Billings]

Can you send me your scenario file you are using for this test. That would really help me. Have you looked at other types of squads, like motorized infantry or mechanized engineer squads to see if they are impacted. I think the easiest fix will be to change the CV values in the ground element file, so we just need to figure out what values need to change. Do armored cars and German halftrack flak, etc. have this /2? Just units with 1 front armor?

[Wiedrock]

Can you send me your scenario file you are using for this test. That would really help me. Have you looked at other types of squads, like motorized infantry or mechanized engineer squads to see if they are impacted. I think the easiest fix will be to change the CV values in the ground element file, so we just need to figure out what values need to change. Do armored cars and German halftrack flak, etc. have this /2? Just units with 1 front armor?

I just test this in the Editor.
Creating a TOE with the ones I want to test and then change one Element to 200 -> REBUILD -> Resuply (100%) and then check for CV in the unit info card.

I assumed that these hidden modfier is manipulating the "Unit Type" So I went trhough the 100+ Types to see which may be affected (not tested 100% of them obviously).
I hope I did not forget about another Type which may be affected by this. The purple/red marked ones I suggest changing, so that they are at least 1.5x the CV of their on foot counterparts (I used the light purple since it is nice for the eyes and the red to make a point! ).

[Joel Billings]

I've doubled the 4 mech types after confirming your results in the editor and seeing those results appear to come across in combat. Thanks for the analysis.

[Wiedrock]

Sounds good. I've tested a random ~43 Panzer TOE and its CV was increased by ~5%.

[Wiedrock]

I've doubled the 4 mech types after confirming your results in the editor and seeing those results appear to come across in combat. Thanks for the analysis.

Would be nice if you would consider changing this "(armored) SP Rocket Launcher" Categry to also have at least the same CV as a unarmored Rocket or a 2 men AT-Rifle element.
I don't understand how they would be less "feet on the ground" then the other elements.
Especially since they appear to be consuming Ammunition in the same way as Inf/Tanks do (so they are "frontline assets"), while the unarmored "SP Rocket launcher" consumes Ammo like if it would be an Artillery (much less, no frontline, no "feet on the ground"). From knowing this one could actually argue to give them the same CV as an Assault Gun.

[Joel Billings]

Since I don't think anyone is ever going to drive up an SP rocket weapon and fire direct fire, I'm not sure that it deserves more CV value than other artillery. As there are only 300-500 of these that make it into the game, it won't have much impact either way. You could mention this in the data area and see what the data guys have to say. Since it just helps the Germans late war, which moves the needle the way people seem to want it moved, I'm wouldn't object to making a change.

[Wiedrock]

Since I don't think anyone is ever going to drive up an SP rocket weapon and fire direct fire, I'm not sure that it deserves more CV value than other artillery. As there are only 300-500 of these that make it into the game, it won't have much impact either way. You could mention this in the data area and see what the data guys have to say. Since it just helps the Germans late war, which moves the needle the way people seem to want it moved, I'm wouldn't object to making a change.

For me it's more about generally making sense out of CV. Two men with an obsolete AT-Rifle having more CV than this assets just bugs me. And as said, they seem to consume Ammo like if they were frontline assets, I'll elaborate on that in the other post, since the Sturmmörser has a RoF of 1 that one is excluded from this statement.

Afaik, the Panzerwerfer ("Stukazufuß") and the Sturmmoerser ("Sturmtiger") were sometimes used to level whole building blocks, so actually went into close proximity, since their accuracy was questionable. That especially the Sturmmoerser was complete abomination, that's for sure.
There is some historic footage on Youtube and somewhere I've come across a war diary of a Sturmmörser crew member a while ago.

[ImperatorAugustus]

The Sturmmörserwagen 606/4 mit 38 cm RW 61 was developed as a continuation of the assault gun doctrine. It should as such have the same CV. The ability to fire indirectly was simply a result of having been equipped with a rocket based projectile due to the shortage of the original 21cm guns.

I'd also like to note there should be defensive and offensive CVs of individual units. The StuG for reference did as well as a 9 CV medium tank, owing to its low profile, in the defense.