I am trying to assuage my grief at stupidly losing the ENTIRE Kido Butai in late-Feb 1994 (due to the AI--SEE that AAR) in my long-term match with Paul by starting a new AAR and match with Thomas. Started another Between the Storms: Lite several months ago and got to mid-April 42 before losing my opponent.
We begin again.
Thomas had told me that he had started looking at BTS a year or more ago and felt he could handle a match. The differences between BTS then and BTS now are pretty significant. The Allied additions are quite something while the Japanese have had tweaks slowing some things down. In particular I felt that some of the Japanese conversions were too fast so I added anywhere from 2-6 months of additional time where it appeared appropriate.
Always chose a current Pacific War book for my AAR title and cannot wait for the fourth volume of Jeffrey Cox's histories. The series begins with Rising Sun, Falling Skies and I really, REALLY recommend all of them. Excellent history that provides a bit of a different view and is very well written. Consider it an endorsement. Just ordered (today) Dark Waters, Starry Skies.
Gonna Post the official BTS AltHist and then let my noble opponent jump in for a comment if he so desires. We have already begun and the bombs/torps have fallen!
Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Am breaking up the AltHist so it is more by historical period:
Between the Storms
ALTNAV 1922-1936
The Treaty Period
The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences to cover the time of 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. The Treaty Years give way to the ramping up of World War Two. Japan grapples with the consequences of exiting the Treaty System and works to create a more balanced Fleet under the able leadership and foresight of Naval Minister Yamamoto Isoroku.
The Washington Conference
Secretary of State Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for naval disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. After considerable bickering and pressure being brought to bear, the Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. A slightly higher 10:10:7 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan is agreed upon, allowing for several new outcomes:
1. The Ratio Change to 10:10:7 instead of 10:10:6.
a. The Japanese argue to keep the nearly complete battleship Tosa and the Amagi-Class battlecruiser Ishitaka. The Americans gain the fourth Colorado-Class USS Washington and the Battlecruiser USS Constellation (while scrapping the old battleships Florida and Utah and making the Wyoming into a gunnery training ship to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods.
b. Tonnages are left open for the British to build two 35,000 Ton battleships (Rodney and Nelson), the United States has 28,000 Ton available, and the Japanese have 18,000 Ton open for new Capital Ships. These warships are designed through the late-20s and are authorized for building at the time of the London Naval Conference. The United States builds a fast Battlecruiser (USS Chesapeake) armed with 4x3 12" Guns while the Japanese build a Light Battlecruiser named Chichibu (2x2 16.1" Guns). These ships come from existing designs from the period.
2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's) are allowed to be built for further carrier experimentation. The Americans convert USS Langley and USS Ely to CVEs and they begin the war at the Panama Canal. Japan has IJN Hosho and Ibuki.
b. Two BC to CV conversions are still allowed so we see the historical Lexington and Saratoga as well as Akagi; however, Akagi gets a true sister with Amagi being converted instead of Kaga. The Americans use all their Treaty tonnage to make Wasp a 4th Yorktown-Class CV. The Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build IJN Ryukaku and Karasu while Soryu enters as a Hiryu-Class CV. The Americans do the same with the failed Ranger by building King's Mountain.
Treaty Carriers at this point are:
Japan: CVE Hosho, CVE Ibuki, CV Akagi, CV Amagi, CVL Ryujo, CVL Ryukaku, CVL Karasu, CV Soryu, CV Hiryu
USA: CVE Langley, CVE Ely, CV Lexington, CV Saratoga, CV Ranger, CVL King's Mountain, CV Yorktown, CV Enterprise, and CV Wasp (as Yorktown-Class)
3. The Big 3 allow for more research into 'Cruiser' Submarines. Since no one had any real idea of where submarines were headed, this allows for further experimentation. The Americans build an additional Argonaut, Narwhal, and three Seaplane carrying subs. The Japanese add three Mine Layers and four large ocean-going Glen SS, and the French add another Surcouf.
The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930), the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). Japan is authorized to build a total of 14 CAs. This adds 2 CAs to Japan's total while USA and UK maintain their 15.
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. This brings no change to the Treaty since Japan was already at 70% in this category. The change does allow for several additional CLs for both fleets.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—Carriers and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each to be built in the early-30s. The nations are allowed ONLY these two vessels to place up to 8" guns on them. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville (3x3 6" and 18 Planes), GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies with 2x2 8" and 15 Planes), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi (3x2 8" and 27 Planes). These hybrids are not true, useful CVLs nor are they true, useful cruisers but they have a unique niche in 1941 and ALL of them can be converted into carriers later in 1942. All Hybrids come from original, planned designs.
In the United States, the Father's of American Naval Aviation, Admiral’s Moffat and Reeves, argue—and win—for the allowance of up to 25% of cruiser construction to be of the Flightdeck Cruiser variety. This is a historically accurate argument; however, THIS reality allows for a further pair of Flightdeck Cruiser to be built for the United States Navy. Japan begins with two, NZ one, Aust one, and the USN has FOUR adding the Patuxent and Anacostia.
***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the last four Mogami-Class as 6” CLs.
Between the Storms
ALTNAV 1922-1936
The Treaty Period
The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences to cover the time of 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. The Treaty Years give way to the ramping up of World War Two. Japan grapples with the consequences of exiting the Treaty System and works to create a more balanced Fleet under the able leadership and foresight of Naval Minister Yamamoto Isoroku.
The Washington Conference
Secretary of State Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for naval disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. After considerable bickering and pressure being brought to bear, the Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. A slightly higher 10:10:7 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan is agreed upon, allowing for several new outcomes:
1. The Ratio Change to 10:10:7 instead of 10:10:6.
a. The Japanese argue to keep the nearly complete battleship Tosa and the Amagi-Class battlecruiser Ishitaka. The Americans gain the fourth Colorado-Class USS Washington and the Battlecruiser USS Constellation (while scrapping the old battleships Florida and Utah and making the Wyoming into a gunnery training ship to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods.
b. Tonnages are left open for the British to build two 35,000 Ton battleships (Rodney and Nelson), the United States has 28,000 Ton available, and the Japanese have 18,000 Ton open for new Capital Ships. These warships are designed through the late-20s and are authorized for building at the time of the London Naval Conference. The United States builds a fast Battlecruiser (USS Chesapeake) armed with 4x3 12" Guns while the Japanese build a Light Battlecruiser named Chichibu (2x2 16.1" Guns). These ships come from existing designs from the period.
2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's) are allowed to be built for further carrier experimentation. The Americans convert USS Langley and USS Ely to CVEs and they begin the war at the Panama Canal. Japan has IJN Hosho and Ibuki.
b. Two BC to CV conversions are still allowed so we see the historical Lexington and Saratoga as well as Akagi; however, Akagi gets a true sister with Amagi being converted instead of Kaga. The Americans use all their Treaty tonnage to make Wasp a 4th Yorktown-Class CV. The Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build IJN Ryukaku and Karasu while Soryu enters as a Hiryu-Class CV. The Americans do the same with the failed Ranger by building King's Mountain.
Treaty Carriers at this point are:
Japan: CVE Hosho, CVE Ibuki, CV Akagi, CV Amagi, CVL Ryujo, CVL Ryukaku, CVL Karasu, CV Soryu, CV Hiryu
USA: CVE Langley, CVE Ely, CV Lexington, CV Saratoga, CV Ranger, CVL King's Mountain, CV Yorktown, CV Enterprise, and CV Wasp (as Yorktown-Class)
3. The Big 3 allow for more research into 'Cruiser' Submarines. Since no one had any real idea of where submarines were headed, this allows for further experimentation. The Americans build an additional Argonaut, Narwhal, and three Seaplane carrying subs. The Japanese add three Mine Layers and four large ocean-going Glen SS, and the French add another Surcouf.
The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930), the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). Japan is authorized to build a total of 14 CAs. This adds 2 CAs to Japan's total while USA and UK maintain their 15.
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. This brings no change to the Treaty since Japan was already at 70% in this category. The change does allow for several additional CLs for both fleets.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—Carriers and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each to be built in the early-30s. The nations are allowed ONLY these two vessels to place up to 8" guns on them. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville (3x3 6" and 18 Planes), GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies with 2x2 8" and 15 Planes), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi (3x2 8" and 27 Planes). These hybrids are not true, useful CVLs nor are they true, useful cruisers but they have a unique niche in 1941 and ALL of them can be converted into carriers later in 1942. All Hybrids come from original, planned designs.
In the United States, the Father's of American Naval Aviation, Admiral’s Moffat and Reeves, argue—and win—for the allowance of up to 25% of cruiser construction to be of the Flightdeck Cruiser variety. This is a historically accurate argument; however, THIS reality allows for a further pair of Flightdeck Cruiser to be built for the United States Navy. Japan begins with two, NZ one, Aust one, and the USN has FOUR adding the Patuxent and Anacostia.
***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the last four Mogami-Class as 6” CLs.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
The Mods differ with Battleships. In BTS: Heavy, the Japanese build all four planned Yamato's as well as Light Battlecruiser Class patterned off of the Chichibu design described above. In BTSL, Japan opts for a less fanciful design moving away from the 'Using a Few to Conquer Many' designs described so well in masterful book Kaigun
Battleship Question and Decision
The progressive faction of the IJN argue--and WIN--for a more modern but practical design and see the creation of 4 Owari-Class BBs carrying 3x3 16" guns, strong secondary, sound armor, and balanced speed. They are faster to build without huge design issues, needed shipyard expansion (like at Nagasaki and the HUGE drydock), and inordinate armor/gun work. It takes nearly 12 months less time to build them from the original order in 1936. The first pair are complete prior to Pearl Harbor and the second pair are due in 1944.
Additionally, several battlecruisers are taken under construction. Initially these are sold as successors to the Kongo-Class and they are of sound design with balanced speed, lighter armor, and good armament. This is the B-65 Class with 3x3 14", excellent speed, and strong secondary. The lead ship, Kawachi, is complete in 1941 and her sister, Kasuga, comes out in 1943.
Battleship Question and Decision
The progressive faction of the IJN argue--and WIN--for a more modern but practical design and see the creation of 4 Owari-Class BBs carrying 3x3 16" guns, strong secondary, sound armor, and balanced speed. They are faster to build without huge design issues, needed shipyard expansion (like at Nagasaki and the HUGE drydock), and inordinate armor/gun work. It takes nearly 12 months less time to build them from the original order in 1936. The first pair are complete prior to Pearl Harbor and the second pair are due in 1944.
Additionally, several battlecruisers are taken under construction. Initially these are sold as successors to the Kongo-Class and they are of sound design with balanced speed, lighter armor, and good armament. This is the B-65 Class with 3x3 14", excellent speed, and strong secondary. The lead ship, Kawachi, is complete in 1941 and her sister, Kasuga, comes out in 1943.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
These Mods are all based off the thoughts, plans, and dreams of Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku.
The Rise of Admiral Yamamoto
As the Treaty Period ends, history takes another turn as Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku makes a greater contribution to the development of the Kaigun from 1936-1941. Yamamoto exerts a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for the war he didn't want. He adds two new slipways (Shanghai and Port Arthur) for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan with two Owari-Class battleships, adding a second pair of Shokaku-Class CVs, two Kawachi-Class battlecruisers, two new CA of the Niitaka-Class, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. During the war four more improved Shokaku-Class CVs are ordered, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs is added. First class destroyers continue to be accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.
The Japan Naval Air Arm deploys its magnificent A6M2 with research complete for its land-based successor the M3 as well as the seaplane A6M2-N Rufe. These airframes are ready in December 1941 and the Japanese wisely look at advanced prototypes elsewhere and decide to explore several second-generation fighter concepts. The Zero Team moves on to the Sam (no Jack), while private contractors work on the George. Yamamoto fosters a sense of competition between the two teams to see who will win out as having a worthy successor to the A6M2 line. Additional streamlining and encouragement brings forward second-generation aircraft of other fields--Dive-Bombing, Torpedo-Bombing, and the creation of a small heavy bomber line built on the obsolescent Liz bomber.
On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.
The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.
Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!
The Rise of Admiral Yamamoto
As the Treaty Period ends, history takes another turn as Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku makes a greater contribution to the development of the Kaigun from 1936-1941. Yamamoto exerts a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for the war he didn't want. He adds two new slipways (Shanghai and Port Arthur) for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan with two Owari-Class battleships, adding a second pair of Shokaku-Class CVs, two Kawachi-Class battlecruisers, two new CA of the Niitaka-Class, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. During the war four more improved Shokaku-Class CVs are ordered, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs is added. First class destroyers continue to be accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.
The Japan Naval Air Arm deploys its magnificent A6M2 with research complete for its land-based successor the M3 as well as the seaplane A6M2-N Rufe. These airframes are ready in December 1941 and the Japanese wisely look at advanced prototypes elsewhere and decide to explore several second-generation fighter concepts. The Zero Team moves on to the Sam (no Jack), while private contractors work on the George. Yamamoto fosters a sense of competition between the two teams to see who will win out as having a worthy successor to the A6M2 line. Additional streamlining and encouragement brings forward second-generation aircraft of other fields--Dive-Bombing, Torpedo-Bombing, and the creation of a small heavy bomber line built on the obsolescent Liz bomber.
On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.
The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.
Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Allied Response
As should be expected, not all the changes are for the Japanese. Between the Storms brings major additions and more choices for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, additional New Zealand and Australian ships, a French Squadron at Tahiti, the Dutch actually complete their planned naval force of 5 CL and 12 DD for the DEI, a stronger Force Z, a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV and Tangier Class AV into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.
Additionally, the Hepburn Board's recommendation to augmenting, garrisoning, and expanding many Pacific Bases in 1938 is heeded and work is sped up at Wake, Midway, the Aleutians, and in the South Pacific. While work has just begun in many ways, these advances pose a tougher problem for Japan if she moves east or southeast.
Following the Destroyer-for-Bases deal in September 1940, President Franklin Roosevelt offers the Dutch government in the East Indies if they could use the old BB’s Texas and New York. The offer underscores the seriousness of the Japanese build-up. It is meant as a deterrent and the Dutch gladly agree. Freshly renamed Prins Hendrik and Prins Willem, these BB join several other new Dutch ships to constitute a real threat to the coming Japanese attack.
As alluded to earlier, Prime Minister Winston Churchill adds several DDs and the battlecruiser Renown to the deterrent Force Z. Repair of HMS Illustrious is expedited and its small TF is passing Ceylon on Dec. 7th. Additional modern fighters and some ground reinforcement is added to Singapore to help in its defense also.
As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions regarding the Philippines: (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) speed up the reinforcement of the islands. The Pensacola TF is reinforced by the CLV Charlotte and arrives at Manila December 1, 1941. The TF unloads its squadron of P-40s and 3 squadrons of A-24 dive-bombers, several artillery batteries and a base force. The convoy then departs and moves south to unload another artillery unit and base force at Del Monte Field near Cagayan. This is where war finds it.
As should be expected, not all the changes are for the Japanese. Between the Storms brings major additions and more choices for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, additional New Zealand and Australian ships, a French Squadron at Tahiti, the Dutch actually complete their planned naval force of 5 CL and 12 DD for the DEI, a stronger Force Z, a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV and Tangier Class AV into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.
Additionally, the Hepburn Board's recommendation to augmenting, garrisoning, and expanding many Pacific Bases in 1938 is heeded and work is sped up at Wake, Midway, the Aleutians, and in the South Pacific. While work has just begun in many ways, these advances pose a tougher problem for Japan if she moves east or southeast.
Following the Destroyer-for-Bases deal in September 1940, President Franklin Roosevelt offers the Dutch government in the East Indies if they could use the old BB’s Texas and New York. The offer underscores the seriousness of the Japanese build-up. It is meant as a deterrent and the Dutch gladly agree. Freshly renamed Prins Hendrik and Prins Willem, these BB join several other new Dutch ships to constitute a real threat to the coming Japanese attack.
As alluded to earlier, Prime Minister Winston Churchill adds several DDs and the battlecruiser Renown to the deterrent Force Z. Repair of HMS Illustrious is expedited and its small TF is passing Ceylon on Dec. 7th. Additional modern fighters and some ground reinforcement is added to Singapore to help in its defense also.
As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions regarding the Philippines: (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) speed up the reinforcement of the islands. The Pensacola TF is reinforced by the CLV Charlotte and arrives at Manila December 1, 1941. The TF unloads its squadron of P-40s and 3 squadrons of A-24 dive-bombers, several artillery batteries and a base force. The convoy then departs and moves south to unload another artillery unit and base force at Del Monte Field near Cagayan. This is where war finds it.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Last Post!
If you didn't keep up on the descriptions above, here are the exact ship additions to the Allies.
Additional/Changed Allied Ships to December 7, 1941
United States
CV Wasp (Yorktown-Class)
CVL King’s Mountain
CVE Langley and Eli
CLV Charlotte, Jacksonville, Anacostia, and Patuxent
BB Washington (Colorado-Class)
BC Constellation (Lexington-Class)
LBC Chesapeake
CA Rome and Burlington
CL Two additional Brooklyn-Class
DD +4 Mahan and +4 Farragut-Class
SS +3 Flying Fish-Class, +1 Argonaut-Class, and +1 Narwhal-Class
Following Admiral Platt and Captain Reeves fervent desires, the USN builds its two CLV (authorized under the London Treaty) AND two more. LOTS of other construction added and in the Fleet by 1941.
United Kingdom
BC Renown
CLAA Dido and Argonaut
DD +4 DD
SS +2 T-Class
Netherland East Indies
BB Prins Hendrik and Prins Willem
CL Eendract and Van Heemskerck
DD +4 DD
SS +3 SS
The Dutch arguably gain the most in this scenario. The Japanese increased build-up prods the Dutch to get construction of the Eendract, Van Heemskerck, Batch-3 DDs, and several more SS completed BEFORE the German Invasion. After the Destroyer-for-Bases Deal, Franklin Roosevelts turns—thru Lend-Lease—to the Dutch and offers them the elderly BB’s Texas and New York. The Dutch accept and the battleships are transferred in early-41. Though needing more crew and carrying American ‘volunteers,’ these old battleships give the Dutch some serious teeth.
Should be noted that these BB and Dutch construction additions were all Real Life thoughts and topics prior to Dec 7th.
France
CL Jean de Vienne
DD +3 Le Hardi-Class
SS +4 (2 Pascal-Class and 2 Surcouf-Class)
The French also gain a powerful Battlecruiser TF in Late Spring 1942 with Strasbourg, Dunkerque, CA Algerie, CL Lamotte-Picquet, 3 DD, and 3 SS.
Australia
CAV Melbourne
DD +4 Admiralty S-Class
SS +2 T-Class
New Zealand
CAV Wellington
DD +2 Admiralty S-Class
If you didn't keep up on the descriptions above, here are the exact ship additions to the Allies.
Additional/Changed Allied Ships to December 7, 1941
United States
CV Wasp (Yorktown-Class)
CVL King’s Mountain
CVE Langley and Eli
CLV Charlotte, Jacksonville, Anacostia, and Patuxent
BB Washington (Colorado-Class)
BC Constellation (Lexington-Class)
LBC Chesapeake
CA Rome and Burlington
CL Two additional Brooklyn-Class
DD +4 Mahan and +4 Farragut-Class
SS +3 Flying Fish-Class, +1 Argonaut-Class, and +1 Narwhal-Class
Following Admiral Platt and Captain Reeves fervent desires, the USN builds its two CLV (authorized under the London Treaty) AND two more. LOTS of other construction added and in the Fleet by 1941.
United Kingdom
BC Renown
CLAA Dido and Argonaut
DD +4 DD
SS +2 T-Class
Netherland East Indies
BB Prins Hendrik and Prins Willem
CL Eendract and Van Heemskerck
DD +4 DD
SS +3 SS
The Dutch arguably gain the most in this scenario. The Japanese increased build-up prods the Dutch to get construction of the Eendract, Van Heemskerck, Batch-3 DDs, and several more SS completed BEFORE the German Invasion. After the Destroyer-for-Bases Deal, Franklin Roosevelts turns—thru Lend-Lease—to the Dutch and offers them the elderly BB’s Texas and New York. The Dutch accept and the battleships are transferred in early-41. Though needing more crew and carrying American ‘volunteers,’ these old battleships give the Dutch some serious teeth.
Should be noted that these BB and Dutch construction additions were all Real Life thoughts and topics prior to Dec 7th.
France
CL Jean de Vienne
DD +3 Le Hardi-Class
SS +4 (2 Pascal-Class and 2 Surcouf-Class)
The French also gain a powerful Battlecruiser TF in Late Spring 1942 with Strasbourg, Dunkerque, CA Algerie, CL Lamotte-Picquet, 3 DD, and 3 SS.
Australia
CAV Melbourne
DD +4 Admiralty S-Class
SS +2 T-Class
New Zealand
CAV Wellington
DD +2 Admiralty S-Class
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Will never operate without House Rules again so here are ours. They are pretty normal:
House Rules
1. If you feel somethings gamey/amiss or just peeved with anything for any reason, let’s talk about as soon as it surfaces. This includes the possibility of modifying house rules.
2. Fighters can sweep at best and second-best maneuver altitude bands only.
3. Amphibious assaults can only happen at dot and regular bases. This includes submarine-borne troops.
4. Both players must pay PP to move restricted units out of the country they are in.
5. No 4E naval bombing below 10,000 feet, except for USN 4E air units who can bomb at 5,000 feet.
6. B-29s cannot be used for naval attacks.
7. No new TFs can be formed on turn one. Any existing TFs can be altered.
8. 1st turn can have multiple port attacks, but ONLY with carrier involvement. Manila and Singapore may have Fighters up and on CAP. Allies cannot transfer new Squadrons to Manila or Singapore reflecting prior knowledge. You must use Fighters at those bases for CAP.
9. There are some planes that were too large for CVEs, both Allied and IJN. For Japan this HR includes any form of George, Sam, and Grace. For the Allies this means that only F4F and FM fighters can operate from USN CVEs (and their Martlet and Wildcat equivalents from RN CVEs).
10. No strategic bombing (Oil, Resources, HI, LI, etc.) on EITHER side until July 1, 1943.
11. Quiet China: Cease fire in effect until 1 January 42, except Hong Kong. If either side vacates a base during this time the other may move into if desired. This time allows for both sides to move troops, make sure revamped garrison requirement are fulfilled, and put plans into effect.
House Rules
1. If you feel somethings gamey/amiss or just peeved with anything for any reason, let’s talk about as soon as it surfaces. This includes the possibility of modifying house rules.
2. Fighters can sweep at best and second-best maneuver altitude bands only.
3. Amphibious assaults can only happen at dot and regular bases. This includes submarine-borne troops.
4. Both players must pay PP to move restricted units out of the country they are in.
5. No 4E naval bombing below 10,000 feet, except for USN 4E air units who can bomb at 5,000 feet.
6. B-29s cannot be used for naval attacks.
7. No new TFs can be formed on turn one. Any existing TFs can be altered.
8. 1st turn can have multiple port attacks, but ONLY with carrier involvement. Manila and Singapore may have Fighters up and on CAP. Allies cannot transfer new Squadrons to Manila or Singapore reflecting prior knowledge. You must use Fighters at those bases for CAP.
9. There are some planes that were too large for CVEs, both Allied and IJN. For Japan this HR includes any form of George, Sam, and Grace. For the Allies this means that only F4F and FM fighters can operate from USN CVEs (and their Martlet and Wildcat equivalents from RN CVEs).
10. No strategic bombing (Oil, Resources, HI, LI, etc.) on EITHER side until July 1, 1943.
11. Quiet China: Cease fire in effect until 1 January 42, except Hong Kong. If either side vacates a base during this time the other may move into if desired. This time allows for both sides to move troops, make sure revamped garrison requirement are fulfilled, and put plans into effect.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
A couple of questions on those:
#7. TFs can be altered, does that mean ships in port could be added or only those already in TFs can be swapped around.
#9. Some of the CVEs (at least in stock) come with F6Fs already, would those be allowed to use the F6Fs?
#7. TFs can be altered, does that mean ships in port could be added or only those already in TFs can be swapped around.
#9. Some of the CVEs (at least in stock) come with F6Fs already, would those be allowed to use the F6Fs?
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
I just wanted to pop in and say to John, and wish him good luck!
Rook749
AAR: This will End Badly @ tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key=, tm.asp?m=4074294 &
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=362017
AAR: This will End Badly @ tm.asp?m=3516510&mpage=1&key=, tm.asp?m=4074294 &
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=362017
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
I was unaware of the F6F. That was a HR I saw in another game that made sense especially with SAM and GRACE as well as how the US/Commonwealth CVEs operated in 1943-44.RangerJoe wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:16 pm A couple of questions on those:
#7. TFs can be altered, does that mean ships in port could be added or only those already in TFs can be swapped around.
#9. Some of the CVEs (at least in stock) come with F6Fs already, would those be allowed to use the F6Fs?
Is that incorrect? If so, needs to be changed...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
I just took a quick look at the Allied reinforcements. Those F6Fs and Corsairs on the CVEs are replenishment groups. But if the numbers drop low enough for the replenishment CVEs to operate aircraft, then that can become an issue.John 3rd wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:15 amI was unaware of the F6F. That was a HR I saw in another game that made sense especially with SAM and GRACE as well as how the US/Commonwealth CVEs operated in 1943-44.RangerJoe wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:16 pm A couple of questions on those:
#7. TFs can be altered, does that mean ships in port could be added or only those already in TFs can be swapped around.
#9. Some of the CVEs (at least in stock) come with F6Fs already, would those be allowed to use the F6Fs?
Is that incorrect? If so, needs to be changed...
Although I do know that in the war maybe 6 Corsairs were on CVEs but I think that most of the fighters were Wildcats or on British ones, Seafires. If that is the case and if someone plans for a scenario modification, then the FM-2 Wildcat should stay in production until the end of the game. But I would not worry too much about that.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia ChildRe: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Time to layout the initial strategy:
Eastern DEI:
Eastern DEI:
- DEI East Side.jpg (415.28 KiB) Viewed 1916 times
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Western DEI:
- West DEI.jpg (401.24 KiB) Viewed 1913 times
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
There are some tricks I use for taking Malaya out FAST.
Dec 7, 1941
I always order everything that is leaving Samah on Dec 7th to land at Kuantan. Makes for immediate air coverage over the peninsula and allows the consolidation of those two broken up Japanese Infantry Divisions. Always bring 3-4 Base Forces and engineers to get the AF up FAST.
While that is happening, I move the IJA Para unit to either Singora or Patani. We use EVERY available transport plane to get most of that unit moved on the 7th/8th.
Dec 8, 1941
Take Kuantan and bring in Fighters.
Finish moving IJA Paras.
Dec 9, 1941
Drop Paratroopers on Malacca, Malaysia. Do this with every bomber possible hitting whatever troops are in this hex. About 90% of the time I take the base in the initial assault. If taken move 50 Fighters into the base.
This single hex cuts the Railroads and now NOTHING can move south to Singers.
Dec 10, 1941
Transports change to hauling in additional Infantry and the Base Force to support the Fighters. Hold the airspace over the base.
December 11, 1941
Bombers shift to hitting troops either north or south of Malacca to slow their movement into the Japanese base. You have to buy time...
Land two full Infantry Divisions at Mersing. These troops are the follow-on troops from Samah and I load them on faster AK/AP and protect them with serious naval firepower. This is a REALISTIC Mersing Gambit.
Dec 12, 1941
Take Mersing.
Dec 13, 1941
Drive Inf Divs towards both western hex and southwestern base of Johore Bharu.
Dec 14, 1941
Hold and move. Keep troops and units landing at Kuantan as well as Mersing.
Army units from Indochina should be arriving at Singora in the north by now. Send them down both the east and west sides of the peninsula. These troops are the hammer pushing units south against the anvil.
Dec 15, 1941
Infantry arrives at either Johore Bharu or the other base. Order immediate assault.
Dec 16, 1941
Using all bombers, smack the bases and permanently cutoff all troops retreating into Singapore.
A three Division invasion of Singers should do it as you gradually wipeout the trapped units to the north.
Sound CRAZY? Nope. WE are at December 14th in this game and I have just described the day-by-day of the campaign at this moment.
Dec 7, 1941
I always order everything that is leaving Samah on Dec 7th to land at Kuantan. Makes for immediate air coverage over the peninsula and allows the consolidation of those two broken up Japanese Infantry Divisions. Always bring 3-4 Base Forces and engineers to get the AF up FAST.
While that is happening, I move the IJA Para unit to either Singora or Patani. We use EVERY available transport plane to get most of that unit moved on the 7th/8th.
Dec 8, 1941
Take Kuantan and bring in Fighters.
Finish moving IJA Paras.
Dec 9, 1941
Drop Paratroopers on Malacca, Malaysia. Do this with every bomber possible hitting whatever troops are in this hex. About 90% of the time I take the base in the initial assault. If taken move 50 Fighters into the base.
This single hex cuts the Railroads and now NOTHING can move south to Singers.
Dec 10, 1941
Transports change to hauling in additional Infantry and the Base Force to support the Fighters. Hold the airspace over the base.
December 11, 1941
Bombers shift to hitting troops either north or south of Malacca to slow their movement into the Japanese base. You have to buy time...
Land two full Infantry Divisions at Mersing. These troops are the follow-on troops from Samah and I load them on faster AK/AP and protect them with serious naval firepower. This is a REALISTIC Mersing Gambit.
Dec 12, 1941
Take Mersing.
Dec 13, 1941
Drive Inf Divs towards both western hex and southwestern base of Johore Bharu.
Dec 14, 1941
Hold and move. Keep troops and units landing at Kuantan as well as Mersing.
Army units from Indochina should be arriving at Singora in the north by now. Send them down both the east and west sides of the peninsula. These troops are the hammer pushing units south against the anvil.
Dec 15, 1941
Infantry arrives at either Johore Bharu or the other base. Order immediate assault.
Dec 16, 1941
Using all bombers, smack the bases and permanently cutoff all troops retreating into Singapore.
A three Division invasion of Singers should do it as you gradually wipeout the trapped units to the north.
Sound CRAZY? Nope. WE are at December 14th in this game and I have just described the day-by-day of the campaign at this moment.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Think I should touch on Japanese Carrier deployments in this variant of BTSL:
Kido Butai---1st Striking Force going to Pearl Harbor:
CARDIV1 Akagi, Amagi, and CVL Ryukaku carrying 198 Planes (69 Z, 54 Val, 69 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
CARDIV5 Shokaku, Zuikaku, and CVL Karasu carrying 180 Planes (69 Z, 48 Val, 56 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
At Saipan:
CARDIV2 Hiryu, Soryu, CAV Tokachi, CAV Kushiro carrying 198 Planes (84 Z, 48 Val, 60 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
At Cam Rahn Bay:
CARDIV3 CVL Ryujo and CVL Zuiho carrying 72 Planes (45 Z, 21 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
At Babeldoap:
CARDIV4 CVE Hosho, CVE Ibuki, CVE Taiyo carrying 57 Planes (36 Claude and 21 Mabel)
The Kido Butai hits PH and then moves rapidly to take a swipe in the seas between Hawaii and the West Coast or cover early Central Pacific landings.
I use CARDIV2 to hit Manila and go after those damned SS. Afterwards it is used to kill parts of the Thundering Herd and then cover landings.
CARDIV3 is too weak to do much so we use it to attack vulnerable shipping and then provide direct CAP over vulnerable Invasion TFs.
CARDIV4 covers the initial moves into Mindanao and towards the Ambon--Timor thrust and tries to not get sunk!
Total Japanese Deployment on December 7th: 6 CV, 4 CVL, 2 CAV, and 3 CVE.
Kido Butai---1st Striking Force going to Pearl Harbor:
CARDIV1 Akagi, Amagi, and CVL Ryukaku carrying 198 Planes (69 Z, 54 Val, 69 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
CARDIV5 Shokaku, Zuikaku, and CVL Karasu carrying 180 Planes (69 Z, 48 Val, 56 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
At Saipan:
CARDIV2 Hiryu, Soryu, CAV Tokachi, CAV Kushiro carrying 198 Planes (84 Z, 48 Val, 60 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
At Cam Rahn Bay:
CARDIV3 CVL Ryujo and CVL Zuiho carrying 72 Planes (45 Z, 21 Kate, and 6 Recon Kate)
At Babeldoap:
CARDIV4 CVE Hosho, CVE Ibuki, CVE Taiyo carrying 57 Planes (36 Claude and 21 Mabel)
The Kido Butai hits PH and then moves rapidly to take a swipe in the seas between Hawaii and the West Coast or cover early Central Pacific landings.
I use CARDIV2 to hit Manila and go after those damned SS. Afterwards it is used to kill parts of the Thundering Herd and then cover landings.
CARDIV3 is too weak to do much so we use it to attack vulnerable shipping and then provide direct CAP over vulnerable Invasion TFs.
CARDIV4 covers the initial moves into Mindanao and towards the Ambon--Timor thrust and tries to not get sunk!
Total Japanese Deployment on December 7th: 6 CV, 4 CVL, 2 CAV, and 3 CVE.
Last edited by John 3rd on Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Allied Carriers
OK. Just covered the Japanese Carrier OOB so you ask "what about the Allied Carrier OOB???"
USS Saratoga is on the West Coast.
The Pacific Scouting Force is engaged in escorting two convoys going into the SE Pacific. CV Enterprise and Lexington along with CVL King's Mountain and a CLV are near or at Pago Pago.
Unfortunately a CLV is located at PH on Dec 7th. The USS Patuxent took an 800 Kg Bomb (with fuel storage explosion!) and a single Torp on Dec 7th.
Two CVE--Langley and Eli--at at the Panama Canal.
There are two CAV in deep southern waters. One is in Aussieland and the other in New Zealand.
Two American CLV are in the DEI. One is near Del Monte Field and the other near Darwin.
A British CV and CVL are at Ceylon.
Total Deployment: 4 CV, 2 CVL, 6 CLV/CAV, and 2 CVE. Biggest Allied issue is they are spread all over Hell and gone and need to be gathered.
OK. Just covered the Japanese Carrier OOB so you ask "what about the Allied Carrier OOB???"
USS Saratoga is on the West Coast.
The Pacific Scouting Force is engaged in escorting two convoys going into the SE Pacific. CV Enterprise and Lexington along with CVL King's Mountain and a CLV are near or at Pago Pago.
Unfortunately a CLV is located at PH on Dec 7th. The USS Patuxent took an 800 Kg Bomb (with fuel storage explosion!) and a single Torp on Dec 7th.
Two CVE--Langley and Eli--at at the Panama Canal.
There are two CAV in deep southern waters. One is in Aussieland and the other in New Zealand.
Two American CLV are in the DEI. One is near Del Monte Field and the other near Darwin.
A British CV and CVL are at Ceylon.
Total Deployment: 4 CV, 2 CVL, 6 CLV/CAV, and 2 CVE. Biggest Allied issue is they are spread all over Hell and gone and need to be gathered.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Every Campaign requires THE PLAN. OK. Here is Japan's for this game:
The RED thrusts are to be done by Mid-January.
PINK thrusts will be done by March. Major Operations will be capture of the Line Islands and Suva-Nadi.
ORANGE marks the completion of the extended defense perimeter. Major moves being the capture of New Caledonia and all points along the magic red line.
As Robert E. Lee said, "there may be an opportunity here." The Japanese will operate in separate CARDIVs (usually 2 CV--1 CVL thru the RED Period then consolidate to TWO CARDIVs operating together during the ORANGE Period, and, finally, The Kaigun will gather together for one operation at a time for the final ORANGE Period.
The Kido Butai will grow and eventually form into two main units of 6 or more CV-CVLs by late-42. We add Junyo, Hiyo, and a pair of CVL before our first substantial CV reinforcement at the end of August 1942.
As soon as possible the Chitose, Chiyoda, and Mizuho will begin their conversions (Feb 1942 for 12 months). The large liners that are convertible to CVE status come about in June and August 1942. They begin as soon as possible.
The RED thrusts are to be done by Mid-January.
PINK thrusts will be done by March. Major Operations will be capture of the Line Islands and Suva-Nadi.
ORANGE marks the completion of the extended defense perimeter. Major moves being the capture of New Caledonia and all points along the magic red line.
As Robert E. Lee said, "there may be an opportunity here." The Japanese will operate in separate CARDIVs (usually 2 CV--1 CVL thru the RED Period then consolidate to TWO CARDIVs operating together during the ORANGE Period, and, finally, The Kaigun will gather together for one operation at a time for the final ORANGE Period.
- The Plan.jpg (226.63 KiB) Viewed 1889 times
As soon as possible the Chitose, Chiyoda, and Mizuho will begin their conversions (Feb 1942 for 12 months). The large liners that are convertible to CVE status come about in June and August 1942. They begin as soon as possible.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
We are at December 13, 1941. My PH Strike was decent with 4-5 BB seriously damaged. Two were in sinking condition. The KB in this Mod doesn't quite pack the Strike Punch that the conventional 6 CV TF did.
Have done pretty well. Sank the two CAs of the Asiatic Fleet using a pair of Kongo's. Those old BC are my favorite RL Japanese ship class.
Had an SS plant a Torp with then an ammo storage explosion into Saratoga near the West Coast. Should take her out for a while.
Currently have CARDIV1 raiding west of San Diego. They have the long-range AOs with them. Have to watch out for the US Navy coming up from Pago Pago so we'll play another day and then head NW to head for a soon to be Japanese Midway Isle. After that we'll combine the KB CARDIVs, go to Kwajalein to refuel and re-provision, then head south to cause mayhem near Suva.
CARDIV5 will rendezvous with the Midway Invasion Force tomorrow. Landing should be in two days.
CARDIV2 did really well hitting shipping after a good Manila Port Strike. Sank 4-5 US SS and damaged a crap ton of others. CARDIV2 then went south around Mindanao, up to Miri, and is now linked up with the 2 CVL from CARDIV3 and are preparing to move towards Batavia covering and distracting the enemy from the Palembang Invasion Force. Am using a massive Fast TF to land and take Palembang.
Have done pretty well. Sank the two CAs of the Asiatic Fleet using a pair of Kongo's. Those old BC are my favorite RL Japanese ship class.
Had an SS plant a Torp with then an ammo storage explosion into Saratoga near the West Coast. Should take her out for a while.
Currently have CARDIV1 raiding west of San Diego. They have the long-range AOs with them. Have to watch out for the US Navy coming up from Pago Pago so we'll play another day and then head NW to head for a soon to be Japanese Midway Isle. After that we'll combine the KB CARDIVs, go to Kwajalein to refuel and re-provision, then head south to cause mayhem near Suva.
CARDIV5 will rendezvous with the Midway Invasion Force tomorrow. Landing should be in two days.
CARDIV2 did really well hitting shipping after a good Manila Port Strike. Sank 4-5 US SS and damaged a crap ton of others. CARDIV2 then went south around Mindanao, up to Miri, and is now linked up with the 2 CVL from CARDIV3 and are preparing to move towards Batavia covering and distracting the enemy from the Palembang Invasion Force. Am using a massive Fast TF to land and take Palembang.
- Ships Sunk 12-13.jpg (142.72 KiB) Viewed 1882 times
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
When I do an AAR I always try to make it as educational as possible. Love great discussions and debate for players to learn from.
Can I do a mouseketeers roll call for who is reading the AAR? Will give me an idea of what to discuss when Posting.
Can I do a mouseketeers roll call for who is reading the AAR? Will give me an idea of what to discuss when Posting.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Re: Dark Waters, Starry Skies
Well, a few of things maybe for the next rewrite.
For the Americans, instead of two more Brooklyn class CL change them to Helenas. Those are half-sisters but they have the better 5/38" guns.
For the Japanese, how about after the historical date of Coral Sea, have upgrades to the BBs removing some or all of the 6" or 5.5" guns and switch some to the AA caliber tertiary guns which can also hit light fleet units but definitely after the historical dates of the Midway battle. The newer battleships and CAs/CLs should already have this change set in the build queue. Then, about a year after the historical capture of Singapore, add some 40mm copies of the British 40mm AA guns both on land and sea. This would cover the gap between the 25mm and the heavier AA guns. The 6" and 5.5" guns removed from the capital ships could then have been used for either the new CLs or additional CD guns. The increase in AA guns would be most important for the faster BBs and BCs as well as cruisers for the CVTF escorts.
Also, to lower the cost of the IJN submarines, reduce their cost by lowering their durability but have a 0 or 1 day upgrade to increase their durability. This should reflect their true cost which should actually be less than a decent sized destroyer. Also, there are only 5 mini-sub carriers but two more subs of essentially of the same class. Change those two subs so they can also carry mini-subs.
For the CVE, the first three in the standard build queue were actually conversions so they should not cost shipyard points in keeping with the logic of other conversions. Alternatively, reduce their cost like in the example of the submarines but with an upgrade in the same way. There was another CVE that was actually a conversion of a xAP in the at start forces, it was sent later to be converted. So instead of building that CVE, change it to a conversion but there was another of the same class that was sunk before it could be converted.
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/12/how ... t-carrier/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiy%C5%8 ... rt_carrier
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/12/how ... t-carrier/
As far as planning for a longer way with more air groups, is there also an increase in the number of pilots training? As well as the recall into pilot training of some of those were "failed" during training due to the much higher standards? Or the continued training of those pilots which would then already be in the replacement pool?
For the Americans, instead of two more Brooklyn class CL change them to Helenas. Those are half-sisters but they have the better 5/38" guns.
For the Japanese, how about after the historical date of Coral Sea, have upgrades to the BBs removing some or all of the 6" or 5.5" guns and switch some to the AA caliber tertiary guns which can also hit light fleet units but definitely after the historical dates of the Midway battle. The newer battleships and CAs/CLs should already have this change set in the build queue. Then, about a year after the historical capture of Singapore, add some 40mm copies of the British 40mm AA guns both on land and sea. This would cover the gap between the 25mm and the heavier AA guns. The 6" and 5.5" guns removed from the capital ships could then have been used for either the new CLs or additional CD guns. The increase in AA guns would be most important for the faster BBs and BCs as well as cruisers for the CVTF escorts.
Also, to lower the cost of the IJN submarines, reduce their cost by lowering their durability but have a 0 or 1 day upgrade to increase their durability. This should reflect their true cost which should actually be less than a decent sized destroyer. Also, there are only 5 mini-sub carriers but two more subs of essentially of the same class. Change those two subs so they can also carry mini-subs.
For the CVE, the first three in the standard build queue were actually conversions so they should not cost shipyard points in keeping with the logic of other conversions. Alternatively, reduce their cost like in the example of the submarines but with an upgrade in the same way. There was another CVE that was actually a conversion of a xAP in the at start forces, it was sent later to be converted. So instead of building that CVE, change it to a conversion but there was another of the same class that was sunk before it could be converted.
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/12/how ... t-carrier/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiy%C5%8 ... rt_carrier
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/12/how ... t-carrier/
As far as planning for a longer way with more air groups, is there also an increase in the number of pilots training? As well as the recall into pilot training of some of those were "failed" during training due to the much higher standards? Or the continued training of those pilots which would then already be in the replacement pool?
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child