Advisor improvement

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Thrake
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:15 am

Advisor improvement

Post by Thrake »

The aim of this post is to show that the current implementation of advisors have negative side-effects, following with a suggestion to improve on it.

I'll start with a positive note to give credit where due, I really like the idea of advisors as it opens up the range of strategies and it's an idea that isn't really used in any other games.


There are two problems that my suggestion is trying to fix:
  • A single advisor can largely replace a major part of many leader's role.

    Let's say I have one good charisma leader. I could name him as my foreign affair director and it would not be a bad idea. However, I could instead name him as advisor and put pretty much any random leader as foreign affair councilor and it would be even better with little downsides. The advisor could be constantly attached to the foreign affair director, so he would deal with all the foreign affair business in all but name. However it does add the flexibility to attach him to governors anytime an IPR roll has to be made. Once all the rolls are done I can attach him again to the foreign affairs. The only malus is the 3 PP cost to detach/attach but let's say for meritocracy that will be making a lot of important IPR rolls for governors, this is a powerful strategy.

    The same can be done with military advisors and OHQ. One advisor with 100+ to operational command rolls could potentially be assigned to every different OHQ, every turn, so that he would perform all the offensive rolls during the player turn. The only limit to this is the ability to spend PP. Late game democracy may be making about 100ish PP a turn. 100+ to rolls may sound like a very good leader, but it's actually easily achieved by turning a (good) SHQ into an advisor mid game once an even better war leader is found.

  • Getting the best out of advisors require a lot of pointless micro management.

    I feel that both exemples show that while advisors are a good idea, it can be exploited and can lead to detrimental gameplay behaviour, repeatedly attaching the advisor to leaders gets tedious. Of course it's possible to use self-control to not engage with uninteresting mechanics, however I think some players will do it anyway as long as it's optimal. It's even more problematic in multiplayer as not getting the best out of features may mean playing with a handicap. This can make players feel compelled to engage with mechanics perceived as uninteresting.
    This also lessens the importance of leaders that are not advisors. With the OHQ exemple, it's still important to have good leaders to do the rolls during the enemy's turn but with the charisma advisor you only really need one advisor to deal with most IPR rolls!

My suggestion to fix this problem:
  • Allow to attach a given advisor no more than once per turn.

    When raising a new OHQ I often end up assigning inexperienced leaders to inexperienced squads. In an on going war, the first few turns for these OHQ are very bloody, facing more experienced units and leaders. Having one or two good war advisors to do the rolls until the OHQ leader gets some exp allows to smoothen the gap into a troop exp only difference. These advisors could still be swapped every few turns to advise newly recruited OHQ as they are raised, or used to get better rolls in critical zones (defending a city etc). Therefore advisors would still be important with this suggestion, however one man couldn't perform the OHQ role for an entire army on his own anymore. Similarly it would be easy to ignore occasional unrest events but large scale couldn't be controlled by one super advisor.
I think it would enhance realism (why could my advisor be able to deal with 5 revolts in a turn spread all across the planet in a single turn?), reduce micromanagement (no more than 3 clicks a turn per advisor) while making decisions around advisors more meaningful (if my advisor can advise many leaders at the same time and do their job much better than they would do it then there's not a meaningful choice on how to use him).
Soar_Slitherine
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Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:33 am

Re: Advisor improvement

Post by Soar_Slitherine »

This is a good suggestion. To make the issue more annoying, it can also be pretty difficult to find the specific leader you want to attach to in the interface for attaching advisors. Advisors would still be quite powerful even without the ability to attach them multiple times per turn.
Not affiliated with Slitherine. They added it to my name when they merged the Slitherine and Matrix account systems.
crimes
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Re: Advisor improvement

Post by crimes »

My suggestion to avoid the head-splitting late-game trouble of hunting for the attachment-target's portrait in the current interface would be to add a "summon advisor" button in the "call" screen for each leader, that when selected brings up a list of advisors to attach to that leader. Since there are, say, 5 advisors, but 60 leaders at this stage, the search becomes much simpler.
Thrake
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:15 am

Re: Advisor improvement

Post by Thrake »

crimes wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:13 pm My suggestion to avoid the head-splitting late-game trouble of hunting for the attachment-target's portrait in the current interface would be to add a "summon advisor" button in the "call" screen for each leader, that when selected brings up a list of advisors to attach to that leader. Since there are, say, 5 advisors, but 60 leaders at this stage, the search becomes much simpler.
Yes, a summon advisor button would also be a great improvement to reduce late game tedium.
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Voker57
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Re: Advisor improvement

Post by Voker57 »

It's nice that advisors now can't run around all the empire in one turn, but a shared timer on attach/detach is too much. One attach and one detach per turn would be perfect.
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mroyer
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Re: Advisor improvement

Post by mroyer »

Voker57 wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:13 am It's nice that advisors now can't run around all the empire in one turn, but a shared timer on attach/detach is too much. One attach and one detach per turn would be perfect.
I always chalked it up to two-Earth-month turns and PP were the ultimate limiter. But yes, if it needs to be further limited, I think Voker57's approach is good.

-Mark R.
solops
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Re: Advisor improvement

Post by solops »

Voker57 wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:13 am It's nice that advisors now can't run around all the empire in one turn, but a shared timer on attach/detach is too much. One attach and one detach per turn would be perfect.
I disagree strongly for the reasons listed here
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p5110588

These people have telephones, radios, vehicles, planes, trains, etc. There is no reasons they cannot shuffle dozens of high value individuals around planet wide in more than 24-72 hours. And I can see no important problems from a game-play point of view. Limiting transfers per turn is a major micro-management pain as well as being totally unrealistic.

As I said before: "The new rule turns a one turn reorganization for PP cost into a multi-turn micromanagement marathon. Let's say that for some reason I want to move two advisors around. Perhaps I a got a new advisor or leader or a new artifact that changes stats or someone got killed or whatever. It does not matter why, I just want to do it. After a careful review of my leaders and advisors I decide who goes where. Before, I just paid the PP cost to attach and detach people and transferred folks where they needed to be all at the same time (turn). Now, I have to wait, doing only one transfer action per turn. I not only have to remember who goes where, but I have to remember to actually do it, which is a questionable thing in my life with as much going on as there is in the game and real life. My desk is already cluttered. I don't need to have to keep a pad of paper with personnel transfers written on it. This kind of multi-turn personnel swap is my definition of micromanagement. In real life I am capable of writing more than one transfer memo at a time."
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand
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Voker57
Posts: 290
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Re: Advisor improvement

Post by Voker57 »

solops wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:01 pm
Voker57 wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:13 am It's nice that advisors now can't run around all the empire in one turn, but a shared timer on attach/detach is too much. One attach and one detach per turn would be perfect.
I disagree strongly for the reasons listed here
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p5110588

These people have telephones, radios, vehicles, planes, trains, etc. There is no reasons they cannot shuffle dozens of high value individuals around planet wide in more than 24-72 hours. And I can see no important problems from a game-play point of view. Limiting transfers per turn is a major micro-management pain as well as being totally unrealistic.

As I said before: "The new rule turns a one turn reorganization for PP cost into a multi-turn micromanagement marathon. Let's say that for some reason I want to move two advisors around. Perhaps I a got a new advisor or leader or a new artifact that changes stats or someone got killed or whatever. It does not matter why, I just want to do it. After a careful review of my leaders and advisors I decide who goes where. Before, I just paid the PP cost to attach and detach people and transferred folks where they needed to be all at the same time (turn). Now, I have to wait, doing only one transfer action per turn. I not only have to remember who goes where, but I have to remember to actually do it, which is a questionable thing in my life with as much going on as there is in the game and real life. My desk is already cluttered. I don't need to have to keep a pad of paper with personnel transfers written on it. This kind of multi-turn personnel swap is my definition of micromanagement. In real life I am capable of writing more than one transfer memo at a time."
To clarify, I think one transfer _per advisor_ should be proper. It's feasible that one individual needs something about two months to move to another place, fully understand local situation and get ready to provide competent advice.
fibol
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri May 12, 2023 3:42 pm

Re: Advisor improvement

Post by fibol »

I would prefer a "you can detach and attach how often you like, but the boni only get applied the next turn" solution. It solves the problem of the shuffling cheese and it keeps it all at one time and even if you make a mistake or change your mind it's just a PP cost.
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