[1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

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Thineboot
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[1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by Thineboot »

Can someone with more experience in weapons testing look at these figures, please?
[S] Volley Fire Rate : a "0" value seems to be replace by Fire Rate >> difference doesn't make sense
The other three marked lines seem to be miscalculated or the values in data\ComponentDefinitions.xml are (partially) wrong, as if someone did a basic calculation while the game treats the data as basic values.
I'm not sure whether my words are clear enough, if in doubt ignore them and look at the numbers in the xml and the UI.

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Id	Size	Crew	Energy	Interc.	Shots	Volley	Name
15	15	5	1	15	1	0	Epsilon Torpedo [S]
59	30	8	2	7.5	2	0.25	Epsilon Torpedo [M]
ComponentId; Size; CrewRequirement; StaticEnergyUsed; WeaponInterceptFireRate; Shots per Volley = WeaponVolleyAmount; WeaponVolleyFireRate
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OrnluWolfjarl
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by OrnluWolfjarl »

From what I understood, Volley shots = amount of shots fired consecutively. At Volley shots = 1, the weapon only fires 1 shot per fire rate cycle. So Volley fire rate = 0 doesn't do anything here. The game tells youbfor the S torpedo that its volley fire rate is 12 seconds, because that's the regular fire rate.

If Volley shots = 2 (or more) then the weapon fires twice every fire rate cycle, and Volley rate determines the difference between the fired shots. So every 12s (regular fire rate of weapon here), the M torpedo fires 2 shots, and there' s a 0.25 second delay between the first and second shot.

However for Interception, there's no volley fire, and there's a separate fire rate value. So all weapons with volley fire get a shorter interception fire rate to simulate that they in fact fire more shots per fire rate cycle than non-volley weapons. So the M torpedo intercepts every 7.5 seconds because it normally shoots 2 shots every 15 seconds, compared to the 1 shot per 15 seconds of the S torpedo (15 seconds for interception).

The DPS values of a lot of weapons do seem to be inconsistent, and I don't know how exactly they are calculated. They are obviously factoring in some variables we are not aware of.

I should say that the tooltips and Galactopedia do seem to be "lying" to the player on quite a few things, which is part of the reason why I made a Cheat Sheet for a lot of things, drawing values directly from the game files we have access to, so we know which values are actually correct in-game.

I do suggest you ignore DPS values in the game tooltips. They are either unrealistic (dont account for fall-off ratio, bypass, targeting/countermeasure bonuses) or they are flat out wrong.
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Thineboot
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by Thineboot »

You explain volleys, that's fine, there may be some people who don't know the term - I do ;)

Volley Fire Rate :
A volley of 1 [S] is a single shot and a volley of 2 [M] is two shots, 0.25 sec apart aka volley fire rate.
Comparing volley fire rates does not really make sense, not only in this case, but when you are comparing values, substituting 0 (zero) for the fire rate is even less appropriate. See the resulting +11.75 secs.

Intercept Fire Rate and Shots per Volley :
The Epsilon Torpedo component's interception time is 15 seconds, and it distributes its shots evenly over that time.
Therefore 1x 15 secs for [S] and 2x 7.50 secs for [M] within 15 secs.

That's also clear, it's there to show all differences between the two components [S] and [M].


Unfortunately, you stop when you get to the part that needs explaining.

Intercept Fighter Damage Rate & Intercept Seeking Damage Rate :
5.76/sec is 4x 1.44/sec
Shots per Volley and Intercept Fire Rate are consistent with all the values starting with Size, except for two of the unmarked values (yellow rounded rectangles).
Based on all these values, we can assume, that [M]-launchers can fire twice as many Epsilon Torpedoes as [S]-launchers in the same amount of time.

If that's true, and so far it makes sense, how come the [M]-launcher's interception damage rates per second are quadrupled instead of doubled?

The CODE part shows the different values in data\ComponentDefinitions.xml for the v3 of both components.

The xml looks fine to me. My underlying question is, are the interception damage rates in question just being displayed incorrectly, or are the incorrect interception damage rates being used in-game?

I do a lot of testing, but I've never done any weapon testing like other members here.
OrnluWolfjarl
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by OrnluWolfjarl »

I wasn't sure what exactly was your question.

But as I said DPS values are usually wrong. As far as I can see (havent tested Epsilon torpedoes specifically), DPS values are just an extra calculation used only in the tooltip and for calculating Strength of ship/fleet.

They don't actually have an impact on battles, beyond fight/retreat logic and attack stance logic when ships/fleets decide if their enemy is stronger or weaker than them.

Edit: the interception DPS values should have been 3.6 and 1.8 by the way.
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Thineboot
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by Thineboot »

Since you've added the Edit I've checked more numbers.

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Damage                        = 55
Damage Rate                   =  3.67/sec
Fire Rate                     = 12.00 secs

55     / 12.00 sec            =  4.58/sec

Intercept Fire Rate           = 15.00 secs

55     / 15.00 sec            =  3.67/sec
The Damage Rate uses the Intercept Fire Rate while it should use the Fire Rate.

Code: Select all

Intercept Fighter (Damage)    = 27
Intercept Fighter Damage Rate =  1.44/sec

27     / 15.00 sec            =  1.80/sec

27     / 18.75 sec            =  1.44/sec
15 sec / 12.00 sec            =  1.25
15 sec *  1.25                = 18.75 sec
27     / (15 * 15 / 12) sec   =  1.44/sec
Seeking has the same values as Fighter.

What's going on here? Who does this kind of calculation?
I can explain it mathematically with the numbers the game offers/displays, but it makes less and less sense to me.

Code: Select all

Intercept Fighter Damage Rate = Intercept Fighter (Damage) / (Intercept Fire Rate * Intercept Fire Rate / Fire Rate)
and
Damage Rate = Damage / Intercept Fire Rate
At least according to the UI.
Either the tooltip is completely messed up, in which case it's more misleading than being a tooltip, or the tooltip shows the in-game values and they are completely messed up.

And that's the root of my question:
can anyone who has tested weapons tell us how they actually work in the game?
NightskyPirate
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by NightskyPirate »

Rarely have I verified DPS against fighters, and didn't with torpedoes. Its a bit more work to check this manually.

However, I can confirm this is probably a mistake. Just not one that has been worth anyone's time to report- torpedoes are rarely used for PD, and even when they are, their contribution is minor.

So, off memory, what it does is fire two consecutive shots in a delayed manner, much slower than the volley fire rate (which applies when firing against ships), but much faster than the intercept fire rate. Overall, it fires very roughly x2 every 7.5 sec. Very very roughly, and more than (so slower than would make intuitive sense imo, but not misleading). It should be 15 second, not 7.5, because it is doubling up on the benefit of basically being a twin-linked weapon.

Most weapons correctly do this last I checked. Considering PD is SO much more effective at anti- fighter firepower, I wasn't very careful or through in verifying they do as intended. I did pay careful attention to blasters, railguns, and beams working as advertised against fighters, and they make sense.

Honestly not sure what you're asking too, but I do think this should be highlighted briefly in the Official Feedback on Discord. Though it'll probably be seen here too :)
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Thineboot
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by Thineboot »

I noticed it by chance while comparing some weapons. I didn't dig it out, and I'm now pretty sure it's not just a one-off problem. The popup (UI) shows values and calculations that do not match their names and corresponding data (xml). Either the game is using these numbers in-game and someone has messed up the intended behaviour - names are given for a reason and shouldn't be mixed up. Or the values are calculated for the UI, and so these functions are messed up. Either way, without extensive testing, it's just a guess. I don't expect the devs to fix this in the near future. So I'd really like to know what to make of the information the game is showing me. I can deal with incorrect popups, I can just ignore them and do my own calculations. But without knowing what values the game is actually using, I can't do that.

The calculations I've done here are easy to reproduce. They are based on the xml and the screenshot.

If I can't trust the game to give me accurate numbers, what's the point of checking the pop-ups? In that case, I'd have to play and see what happens when I use this or that weapon. And I'm not just talking about Epsilon Torpedoes, it's a general problem, when planning becomes gambling.
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iancmtaylor
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by iancmtaylor »

Thineboot wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:25 am
Intercept Fighter Damage Rate & Intercept Seeking Damage Rate :
5.76/sec is 4x 1.44/sec
Shots per Volley and Intercept Fire Rate are consistent with all the values starting with Size, except for two of the unmarked values (yellow rounded rectangles).
Based on all these values, we can assume, that [M]-launchers can fire twice as many Epsilon Torpedoes as [S]-launchers in the same amount of time.

If that's true, and so far it makes sense, how come the [M]-launcher's interception damage rates per second are quadrupled instead of doubled?
That can be explained by this- https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p5085553

The main issue with DPS/Volley/Fire Rate not making the correct numbers, I remembered :)

Been a month since I looked at weapon stats so I forgot.

All DPS takes Point Blank Accuracy into account.
I am /u/SharkMolester, moderator of /r/DistantWorlds and BFHKitteh, admin of https://dw2.fandom.com/wiki/Distant_Worlds_2_Wiki.
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Thineboot
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Re: [1.1.3.6] Epsilon Torpedo [S] vs [M]

Post by Thineboot »

Thanks iancmtaylor :)

Please move this thread to Distant Worlds 2: Tech Support.
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