OoB 2 Update

[Wild]

Hey guys,

How is the new order of battle update coming along?

Release soon?

[Teo41_ITA]

In the latest beta round, the devs were addressing some issues with the Axis AI not bringing from the AR TB StuG and Flak SU. Hopefully this will be fixed soon.

No idea about an official release.

[Denniss]

The major scenario conversion work is done.
It's now in validation testing, like AI/AI testrounds and an internal audit, to verify all functions relating to/relying on OBs are still working as intended.

[Joel Billings]

We've found a series of issues that we've had to address, some in data, some in the code. As Dennis said, the bulk of the data rework is done and we're just finding/fixing issues now. We're in the middle of testing some of the fixes, and implementing a few more. It's hard to say how much longer this will go on for. We were literally a day away from releasing to testers when we uncovered the most recent issue last week. We hope it will be fixed by next week so we can release to our testers. Given all of the changes, we will need to keep this in test longer than the normal test period before releasing as a public beta. Assuming everything goes great from here on out, the soonest I believe it could go out to the public would probably be late September. Given the unknowns, it could be later. Sorry, I know that's not what anybody wants to hear.

[Guilev]

Thank you Joel for giving us an expected release date of the new patch.
We understand you cannot provide a precise date but an estimation timeline is appreciated
I was thinking to start a new campaign but i will wait for the release of the beta thanks to this information

[Wild]

Thanks for the updates everyone.

No worries Joel. I wouldn't want to rush anything on this great game!

Was just curious if I should start another game while waiting. Maybe it's time to try some smaller scenarios instead.

Thank you for the continuing support.

Cheers

[Gters]

so in the next patch, in addition to the updates already mentioned, there will also be updates on the skills of the generals? Example Messe is too underrated and was one of the best generals of WWII

[Joch1955]

Could we get a more detailed explanation of what will be in the OOB update?

I want to start a new 41 campaign and wanted to see if it is worth it to wait for the new version.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Could we get a more detailed explanation of what will be in the OOB update?

I want to start a new 41 campaign and wanted to see if it is worth it to wait for the new version.

Something to chew on.

The 2.0 update is a comprehensive review of all Axis OBs and is culmination of several years’ worth of work. I spent time going through German published sources on KSTNs, Kriegsgliederungs and the excellent work of Niehorster and Askey which go into tremendous detail based on the above KSTNs and Kriegsgliederungs. The original WitE OBs used single templates for all most of the German divisions and this simply is just not a representation of how these units looked like. The infantry divisions were organized in waves of mobilization that had similar characteristics. There were several dozens of different “waves” of infantry divisions that were not previously represented. Some had full panzerjaeger Battalions and a full aufklarungs battalion. Some had a combined “Fast” Battalion with a single panzerjaeger company and two companies of recon. Some had a pioneer battalion of two companies instead of three. Some fielded captured Soviet anti-tank guns and some even had nebelwerfers. Some static type divisions raised in the West were very poorly equipped but had their own self propelled panzerjager company! Now, there is some significant flavor in the differences in these units and they field some more exotic or captured equipment as part of their OB which has been an issue reported in the past.

The 1944 “standard” infantry divisions were still not standardized despite the published organization charts. WiTE OBs had almost every infantry division with a self-propelled StuG or Panzerjaeger company. In reality, these were exceptions and not the norms. The OBs were adjusted accordingly.

Panzer Divisions also used a generally single upgrade path which was again far from reality. The 8th Panzer Division was still using Czech 38ts during the battles around Veliyke Luki. Now, there are four different tiers of Panzer Divisions – Tier 1 (Elite, latest equipment), Tier 2 (Standard), Tier 3 (use a StuG Battalion as part of their panzer regiment) and Tier 4 (older equipment and last to upgrade). These tiers aren’t absolute and no panzer division strictly adhered to any of these tiers but they do allow for a wider variety of equipment to be used. It also prioritizes new equipment fielding since only the Tier 1 divisions are immediately authorized the latest equipment since the equipment demand is not immediately opened up to every panzer division on the new OB update. It also allows for older tanks and equipment to stick around longer so that they have a longer useful life. There were still Panzer IIIs lurking around in numbers during Bagration in the summer of 1944. The tiered system allows for the divisions to use different types of panzer aufklarungs battalions. Some divisions hang onto primarily motorcycle units while some get the latest Sdkfz 250 recon sections. This system also activates the Sdkfz 250 chassis of equipment as there were not enough available slots in the previous generic panzer division OBs to use them before. With more variations of panzer divisions, we can also introduce more limited pieces of equipment that weren’t getting much use with some tiers receiving flamm panzers, Sdkfz 251/16 Flamm Halftracks, Lynxes and various armored cars that weren’t used in great numbers before.

Panzerjaeger equipment elements are now added a little bit more realistically as the OBs take into account the actual availability of equipment in their OBs since the production model does not have a true “learning curve” but are built more “on demand”. Even though the Panzerschrek was technically in production in late 1943, it wasn’t commonly available to the infantry divisions until the spring of 1944. References say that the Germans trained five independent panzershrek battalions for use in the East in late 1943 with some panzergrenadier divisions receiving them first. This is reflected in the OBs as well. Some of the units had to have their panzershrek complement toned down significantly as well. A lot of these OB units were using the number of panzershreks on hand instead of the number of trained panzershrek firing teams. This resulted in a large number of panzershreks that should not have been in these units. In 1944, there were normally about 2 panzershrek teams per company. This was increased to 3 in late 1944 and by 1945, there were as many as 4 teams in a company. This is the reason why the panzershrek ground element was renamed as “Panzershrek Team”.

The Pak 97/38 is another example of a stop gap measure that was used before significant Pak40s could be fielded. You will now see more of these converted French ATGs before enough Pak40s could be fielded in early 1943.

Other than organization changes, these changes were implemented as well:

• Review of Axis Minor imported German equipment and captured equipment now formally incorporated into their respective Axis minor OBs. MG 34s, Pak38s, Panzer IIIs, Panzer IVs, Panzerschreks are now in Axis Minor OBs

• Addition of full breakdown of combat units by year for divisions, brigades, regiments and battalions with the appropriate motorization status. No more substituting 1943 Motorized Regiments with a 1941 Regular Infantry Regiment. They have their own units now.

• Many units have motorized and un-motorized variants

• More unit now have their historic names like “Army Sturm Artillery Brigade”

• Panzer and Stug units now have their escort units included – Flak, Panzergrenadiers, Panzer Pioneers, Motorized Recon, etc.

• Germans have Kampfgruppe units to be used in special scenarios. This is basically a single combat regiment backed by divisional assets.

• More variations of panzerjaeger and flak units

• Huge addition of new units never seen before

• Deliberate OB upgrades for key dates – such as Oct 43 for when panzerfausts become available in the ground elements.

• Soviet Reduced Shtat Rifle Divisions

• Axis Minor OB reviews. Note that the best references for these countries come in their native languages which I do not have access to

• Italians have three different variants of units – North Africa, Metropolitan, and Eastern Front

• Cleaned up OB list in a logical manner. There was all kind of nationalities jumbled up in confusing mass entries. Now, it should be easier to scan through what is available.

• Cleaned up the ground elements of every single entry. The ground elements within an OB are now organized in a logical fashion as well by Infantry, Recon, Engineer, MGs, Mortars, Infantry Guns, ATGs, SP Anti-Tank, AAA, Artillery/Rockets, Armored Recon, Tanks and Support. Also cleared out blank spaces in OBs

[56ajax]

Review of Axis Minor imported German equipment and captured equipment now formally incorporated into their respective Axis minor OBs. MG 34s, Pak38s, Panzer IIIs, Panzer IVs, Panzerschreks are now in Axis Minor OBs

In my current game I currently have, eg approx 500 obsolete Pz III rusting in the pool so I would hope that they can be exported at a slightly higher rate than the traditional 1 a week; otherwise it is just window dressing

[Gters]

So "strength" of the Italian divisions will be changed? The Alpine divisions had around 15,000 men but in the game currently there are barely 10,000

[Cavalry Corp]

Italian alpines - agree quite underrated in the game

BUT Alpine and Mountain Divs had a lot of mules ... a real lot. Certainly the Italians took all theirs into Russia.

These units and Cav units should be using much more supply, as fodder is much more bulky to move, I was going to put a post up about this. They did not just live of the land.

Units with this problem

All Cav units
Alpine units
Most Mountain units.

BUT these units should be worth more in some TB like Italy and Balkans where there is a lot of mountains? Also In Russia TB as they (Cav) were quick over difficult terrain to catch Partisans. But in general Germany wound down Cav units to quite a low level as its quite clear they were tricky to supply. they would have had enough good horses for several large Cav Divs. I don't think Italians put Cavalry in Russia either - same reason to expensive to supply??

Astonishingly even Italian alpine units and all Italian units had no better provision for winter in 42 than in 41. The idea was they would stay in bunkers etc in winter 42 - but then Stalingrad happened. Italian units should suffer as bad in 42 as 41. Finally in my Italian thread I pointed out the commander of the Alpine Corps should be better on arrival and probably Messe is still, a bit underrated.

[Great_Ajax]

You hit the nail on the head. More personnel does not necessarily mean more combat power. I built the Alpine Division using Niehorster and Nazfiger so really there is no real increase in combat power but the support elements were boosted so that the divisions have 14,750 men. Essentially, the change just adds more supply requirements.

Trey

Italian alpines - agree quite underrated in the game

BUT Alpine and Mountain Divs had a lot of mules ... a real lot. Certainly the Italians took all theirs into Russia.

These units and Cav units should be using much more supply, as fodder is much more bulky to move, I was going to put a post up about this. They did not just live of the land.

Units with this problem

All Cav units
Alpine units
Most Mountain units.

BUT these units should be worth more in some TB like Italy and Balkans where there is a lot of mountains? Also In Russia TB as they (Cav) were quick over difficult terrain to catch Partisans. But in general Germany wound down Cav units to quite a low level as its quite clear they were tricky to supply. they would have had enough good horses for several large Cav Divs. I don't think Italians put Cavalry in Russia either - same reason to expensive to supply??

Astonishingly even Italian alpine units and all Italian units had no better provision for winter in 42 than in 41. The idea was they would stay in bunkers etc in winter 42 - but then Stalingrad happened. Italian units should suffer as bad in 42 as 41. Finally in my Italian thread I pointed out the commander of the Alpine Corps should be better on arrival and probably Messe is still, a bit underrated.

[Gters]

You hit the nail on the head. More personnel does not necessarily mean more combat power. I built the Alpine Division using Niehorster and Nazfiger so really there is no real increase in combat power but the support elements were boosted so that the divisions have 14,750 men. Essentially, the change just adds more supply requirements.

Trey

Italian alpines - agree quite underrated in the game

BUT Alpine and Mountain Divs had a lot of mules ... a real lot. Certainly the Italians took all theirs into Russia.

These units and Cav units should be using much more supply, as fodder is much more bulky to move, I was going to put a post up about this. They did not just live of the land.

Units with this problem

All Cav units
Alpine units
Most Mountain units.

BUT these units should be worth more in some TB like Italy and Balkans where there is a lot of mountains? Also In Russia TB as they (Cav) were quick over difficult terrain to catch Partisans. But in general Germany wound down Cav units to quite a low level as its quite clear they were tricky to supply. they would have had enough good horses for several large Cav Divs. I don't think Italians put Cavalry in Russia either - same reason to expensive to supply??

Astonishingly even Italian alpine units and all Italian units had no better provision for winter in 42 than in 41. The idea was they would stay in bunkers etc in winter 42 - but then Stalingrad happened. Italian units should suffer as bad in 42 as 41. Finally in my Italian thread I pointed out the commander of the Alpine Corps should be better on arrival and probably Messe is still, a bit underrated.

Sure there was a lot of support staff but as you can see from this link, for example Cuneense had around 18,000 men and many more weapons and guns than there are in game.

https://www.alpini-cuneense.it/ordine_battaglia.htm

I can translate to you it if needed..

[PeteJC]

I am going to start up a new campaign game (human vs. human). Will I be able to update the game with the new OOB and still play our campaign game? Obviously, any changes before the current turn will not happen but will it be OK going forward or will the new OOB version be completely incompatible?

[Joel Billings]

Any game started with the current version can be continued with the next update, however all of the data changes (including OB changes) will not come into the existing game. The data is loaded at the start of a game, and that never changes. Only the code changes. So you will get the benefit of the new bug fixes, but you won't have the new data in your older games. BTW, testing continues on the next update. Our testers are finding a few issues that we have been fixing. It's possible that the new update may be available as a public beta within the next few weeks, although it's also possible it will remain in testing for longer.

[PeteJC]

Any game started with the current version can be continued with the next update, however all of the data changes (including OB changes) will not come into the existing game. The data is loaded at the start of a game, and that never changes. Only the code changes. So you will get the benefit of the new bug fixes, but you won't have the new data in your older games. BTW, testing continues on the next update. Our testers are finding a few issues that we have been fixing. It's possible that the new update may be available as a public beta within the next few weeks, although it's also possible it will remain in testing for longer.

Wow, thanks so much for the quick response, Joel. As much as I would love to have all the new data, we can't wait that long to get another started. Thans again and thanks for all your and the team's hard work.