A question and design.

TLG · Post by **TLG** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:58 am

It seems that, without fail 95% of the time, the computer will get a lock and fire before myself, even with inferior computer/scanners.. Why is this? This makes things a bit skewed towards the computer, if it isn't due to some formula that I don't understand.. When the enemy can unload with heavy guns, before oneself, without regard to the details of the situation, one can feel a bit stymied... So, what's the deal with that? It has frustrated me, either because I am ignorant as to the finer ways of its workings, or from lack of proper mechanics.. I hesistate to think it is the latter..

Anywho, on to the titan design.. I'm the sort who likes guns, big guns, if I can manage it, and things that hit hard.. I like armor as well, and will usually, given a decent heat reg, keep these two things as par as possible, before adding doodahs like flares, ecm, shields, dcs systems.. I also like top of the line computers, and if the scanners weight didn't increase so, I would for them, as well..
So, given that bend, and style of play, this is my medium, to compliment my light, which is named Breaker.. If these boys get in range, they usually perform to their name and weaponsake.
It's best to run them with a hardy sort of pilot, cyborg or android..

Titan Name: <X2> (Medium Defense Titan)
Chassis: Krios K-M3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 100.0t (100t maximum) Height : 13 [meter]
Bmt : 25 (48 kph) Reduce Heat: -2.9C/sec.
No Jump-Ports Cost : 217652 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Morola M1 [Engine 1] [LowT]
Heatreg.:Delinit H6 [Heat 6]
D.C.S. :Repakoff [D.C.S.1] [CBT ]
LifeSup.:Livotto [Life 1] [CBT ]
Scanner :CyberSys L [Scan 3] [CBT ]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [Head]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RT ] AUTO CANNON 12 (015) [1]
[LT ] AUTO CANNON 12 (015) [1]
[RA ] S.R.M. 8 RACK (016) [1]
[LA ] S.R.M. 8 RACK (016) [1]
[CT ] S.R.M. 8 RACK (016) [1]

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (13) Dullaroy 020 [030mm]
[RT ] (23) Dullaroy 042 [061mm]
[CT ] (23) Vicenium 042 [070mm]
[CBT ] (15) Vicenium 016 [027mm]
[LT ] (23) Dullaroy 042 [061mm]
[RA ] (21) Vicenium 042 [071mm]
[LA ] (21) Vicenium 042 [071mm]
[LowT] (15) Vicenium 043 [072mm]
[RL ] (19) Vicenium 043 [072mm]
[LL ] (19) Vicenium 043 [072mm]

Armorindex: 5.67 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 192 [APts]
External: 375 [APts] Max:[080mm]
Total Armor: 567 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Medium Titan
Weapons : N.G.M Cannon
Warfare : Scanner
Skills : D.C.S Medical Ind.Fire

If all weapons hit, and the missiles do full damage, this one'll crank out 72atc (at the chassis

) damage.. Usually, it'll be from 50-70, given misses of various kinds... I might be a kludge when it comes to making titans, having blinders that I don't even see, so if she's flawed, lemme know.. (I know that there can be one more lot ap, but I like the aesthetics of this..) One last note, the AC's sorta help punch holes in the armor, while the missiles, at times, will whittle away at whatever gadgetry one has behind their armor-plated hide... I had three AC's, and two SRM 4's on this puppy, in the first incarnation, but for a 3 hex penalty, I found 3 srm 8's to give a nicer wallop.. Also, I know that one can go 6 srm 4's.. But, you gain 3 pounds in doing so (though, a nicer firing rate to boot, but conversely more heat) and I prefer the thicker hide..

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:16 am

Locking the opponent is based on your reaction, and I think also your battle computer. I may be remembering it wrong, though. Iceman? Larkin?

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:33 pm

You're remembering it correctly Michael.
TLG, if it were something with the game mechanics, don't you think it would happen to everyone? I don't see too many complaints.

TLG · Post by **TLG** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:26 pm

Your argument is that since a flaw has not already been uncovered, no flaw can/will exist? In this case, the consensus seems to be that reaction skill value/battle computer play the role of figuring out the lock-on times/fire initiative. How is this fair given two opponents matched in reaction skill and battle computer levels, and perhaps scanner level? One automagically gets to attack first? For discussion, my character has a reaction of 20, battle computer 6 and a scanner 3.

P.S.: You are seeing one complaint.. I dislike being hit first when it is the moving titan that has just wandered into -my- field of fire. They are a: moving, and b: locking onto me.. I am sitting quietly waiting for them to show.. I would expect my jock have some advantage, given that situation.

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:47 pm

Originally posted by TLG
Your argument is that since a flaw has not already been uncovered, no flaw can/will exist? In this case, the consensus seems to be that reaction skill value/battle computer play the role of figuring out the lock-on times/fire initiative. How is this fair given two opponents matched in reaction skill and battle computer levels, and perhaps scanner level? One automagically gets to attack first? For discussion, my character has a reaction of 20, battle computer 6 and a scanner 3.

P.S.: You are seeing one complaint.. I dislike being hit first when it is the moving titan that has just wandered into -my- field of fire. They are a: moving, and b: locking onto me.. I am sitting quietly waiting for them to show.. I would expect my jock have some advantage, given that situation.

One possibilty is that your AI opponent has a better scanner and/or a slightly higher elevation and is actually able to see you before you can see him, and is thereby able to get his lock before he actually enters your field of fire. That's happened to me many times when I'm playing the AI at higher skill levels, or when I'm playing against humans who know what they're doing.

I know it's not impossible that a bug has remained unnoticed for all this time, but one which always let your enemy fire first probably would've been spotted by now. As for how initiative is determined when the opponents are equal, I'll leave that one for Larkin or Iceman, since I don't know how it works, either.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:47 pm

I don't think its a bug. I can not recreate either. Most likely the enemy did already had a lock on you. I guess your 95% value is exaggerated, right ? The AI is not cheating here. I'm not saying that a bug isn't possible but its very unlikely that it was unnoticed in hundreds of battles.

With reaction 20 and BC 6 you should be first in a situation were both detect their target at the same time.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:50 pm

Like it has already been said, it's probably a LoS related issue. If the opponent is on higher ground, he'll have an advantage over you. That's the other advantage of having the high ground.
There was a bug in the battle module in LoS determination, can't recall if it was fixed in v1.4 or only in WS, but with that kind of info I can't tell if that is it.

Also notice that scanners have this thing called virtual height, that expands your LoS. A scanner 3 is not exactly state of the art

BTW, my argument was that after years of game play, thousands of battles, and 2 intensive periods of beta testing that lasted for 1.5 yrs, no one except you mentioned this. That's all I meant. The fact that you said it happened in 95% of the cases, with inferior computer/scanner, is also a pointer - if it were a bug, shouldn't it always happen? Assuming the conditions were always the same of course. Seems the scanner might not actually be inferior after all too.

Another note, line of sight and line of fire are two different things. Using the difference to good effect is not easy but it's powerful.

In WS, ECMs will decrease your opponents' scanner VH, making them handy when setting up ambushes.

rosary · Post by **rosary** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:54 pm

The skills do make a difference.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:14 pm

Originally posted by rosary
The skills do make a difference.

Yep, more precisely Electronic Warfare, which modifies the time to get a lock. But that's all in the documantation.

Coyote27 · Post by **Coyote27** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:21 pm

Originally posted by TLG

Anywho, on to the titan design.. I'm the sort who likes guns, big guns, if I can manage it, and things that hit hard..

Titan Name: <X2> (Medium Defense Titan)
Chassis: Krios K-M3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 100.0t (100t maximum) Height : 13 [meter]
Bmt : 25 (48 kph) Reduce Heat: -2.9C/sec.
No Jump-Ports Cost : 217652 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Morola M1 [Engine 1] [LowT]
Heatreg.: Delinit H6 [Heat 6]
D.C.S. :Repakoff [D.C.S.1] [CBT ]
LifeSup.:Livotto [Life 1] [CBT ]
Scanner :CyberSys L [Scan 3] [CBT ]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [Head]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RT ] AUTO CANNON 12 (015) [1]
[LT ] AUTO CANNON 12 (015) [1]
[RA ] S.R.M. 8 RACK (016) [1]
[LA ] S.R.M. 8 RACK (016) [1]
[CT ] S.R.M. 8 RACK (016) [1]

^_^
It looks like one of my favorites, the Panther, but mine has a shield 1, and jump ports, & a light meson instead of the CT rocket pod, and much more ammo all around... All in all it looks good as long as your enemy isn't using plasma guns and CLG's, with no shield or ecm you'll be vulnerable to called shots.

Also you might have ammo shortage problems, specially if those annoying meson rounds hit your ammo slots.

Also, put your engine in your CBT. It's more protected from damage there. If you are getting hit in the back you are probably screwed anyway.

TLG · Post by **TLG** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:21 am

I thought it might be a flaw, though I did not say bug, but that's just semantics.. I wasn't sure if people just expected the computer to fire first, given two parties having the same lock time.. Btw... Which party does fire first, given the same lock time, and same 'seen' time? That still isn't clear to me.. I understand that LOS can play a part in seeing the other titan first, and therefore locking first..

Onto the titan: the engine is in the LOT because if I put it in the back, my computer has to sit in either the LT/CT/RT.. I want all the working bits to be in lower % hit areas, and while the CBT isn't overly small of a target, it does have the value of being behind the titan, as everyone knows.. The ammo has not been a problem, suprisingly.. I usually get duels at 140 tons vs my 99.9 tons.. Usually, one medium and recon on my medium, or three recons.. Barring really nasty situations (flamers at bad times), the mech's fared well with its ammo allotment... The DCS helps catch mason criticals, and usually, if any, I get a weapon damage hit, which might be repairable, given some breather time... The weapons deals out really nice damage, and while the setup with the mason sounds very workable, and useful, I don't get the same thrill from them..
Range can be a problem, of course, given that the AC12's are the longest ranged weaponry it sports... Since there are some changes in the new ToS, I think I'll be replacing the DCS with a ECM 1 and flares 2, barring any non-interchangable changes..

As an aside, NM mechs are durn fun, or horribly nasty, given ones perspective (literally)...

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:36 am

Lack of proper mechanics is generally considered a bug

As to who fires first, it's whoever gets put in the queue first
:p Reaction plays its part there.

TLG · Post by **TLG** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:41 am

I need to raise my queue skill, perhaps. :>

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 am

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:20 am

In v1.4 only reaction was deciding who will go first. Same reaction would result in titans from lower team number to be first.

In WS reaction, then instinct then rank will decide who is first. If all is equal then again the slot/team will make the difference.

A question and design.

A question and design.

Re: A question and design.