Subs and Oilers

[canuckgamer]

I am wondering if it is realistic to allow oilers to refuel subs/u-boats. Besides fuel it would also mean replenishing their supply of torpedoes. Was it possible for crew members to manhandle the large and heavy torpedoes down the narrow hatch to the torpedo room? Secondly could the crews stay at sea for a year without going bonkers?
In our PBEM game, there are u-boats raiding the Pan American and Carribbean sea convoy routes for the last year without once returning to port.
In regards to oilers I don't think it should be a 100% success rate for any ship, surface or sub. An oiler could be sunk if spotted by enemy ships or planes. Also there was no guarantee that the oiler and ship could rendezvous successfully each and every time.

[Bo Rearguard]

Was it possible for crew members to manhandle the large and heavy torpedoes down the narrow hatch to the torpedo room?

Most of the larger German U-Boats (Type IX) carried an external store of ten torpedoes under the upper deck plating. When needed, they were lifted out their external bay with a hoist, block & tackle and put down the hatch into the torpedo room the same way. If these torpedoes could be loaded at sea, then if would be even easier from a supply ship which would have a crane or derrick it could lower the torpedo over the side with. It was a slow and cumbersome exercise, but it was routinely done. There were even a few occasions were a U-Boat inward bound would off-load its spare torpedoes to another boat still at sea by winching them over. You wouldn't go through this much trouble if it wasn't possible.

[canuckgamer]

Thanks, interesting. On the flip side, I've read a number of books on the Pacific War where American subs that had run out of torpedoes returned to base so I quess they didn't have that capability.

[Bo Rearguard]

Thanks, interesting. On the flip side, I've read a number of books on the Pacific War where American subs that had run out of torpedoes returned to base so I quess they didn't have that capability.

It wasn't a pressing need for the USN. Most American subs (like the Gatos) were built with endurance and habitability in mind. Once, they finished a 50 odd day patrol and cleaned out the food stores it was time to come home. The Type VIIs which made up the bulk of the German U-Boat fleet had far shorter range than the US boats and needed a boost to operate in distant locations like the Caribbean, South Atlantic or the US East coast. They also didn't carry as many torpedoes or tubes...but at least they worked.

Plus, I don't think it would have been possible for US sub tenders to operate on the surface behind Japanese lines in the Western Pacific like German supply ships did in the Indian and South Atlantic Oceans. Too many enemy island bases dotting the area, too many long-ranged Japanese flying boats like the H8K Emily and H6K Mavis on patrol. They usually anchored at a friendly port nearby under air cover. Additionally, as the Allied front moved forward in 1943-45 US subs didn't have as far to go to reach their hunting grounds.

[canuckgamer]

The Caribbean and Pan American convoy routes are close to North America. Seems unrealistic to me that oilers could sail that far from their bases in Europe and not be spotted by air. In addition as the procedure for refueling including delivering additional torpedoes would take significant time on the surface the chances of being spotted would dramatically increase.
This past spring on a trip to the UK I visited Betchley Park. One of the videos was about the capture of an intact Enigma machine which helped in the breaking of the German code. Once broken the Allies knew where and when u-boats would be and by 1942 the battle of the Atlantic had been won by the Allies.
In the game now, the sub pens in France are not even needed and you could have a u-boat at sea for years as long as there are oilers. I just did a search and the longest mission by a Type VIIC was 97 days while the longest mission by a Type 1XD2 was 225 days.

[Shellshock]

I've read most German oilers either started the war at sea or in neutral ports. Most operated in areas well away from the convoy lanes under bad weather. The foggy ice-strewn area south of Greenland was pretty popular. In any case, I think they represent an abstract refueling ability more than one oiler literally refueling one sub out on a mid-Atlantic convoy line, just as each submarine unit abstractly represents a number of submarines going to and from patrol, rather than one discreet sub.

Can't speak for other navies, but not all German oilers were surface ships. As their standard oilers were eliminated, the Germans built at least ten Milchkuhs or "Milkcows". Specially modified large U-boats which carried no torpedo armament, but tons of diesel oil in specially designed tanks. They were called Type 14 U-Boats. The last one wasn't sunk until 1944. In addition, any number of U-boats were pressed into service as provisional tankers. Their only job being to top off the tanks of the fighting U-Boats at sea.

[canuckgamer]

Sorry, a typo in my last post. It should have read that by 1943 the Allies had won the Battle of the Atlantic. The point I am trying to make is that U-Boats at sea for years just doesn't make any sense.

[canuckgamer]

Maybe naval units should have an efficiency number like ground and air units. It would be reduced every turn they are at sea and have combat including raiding convoys. Reduced efficiency would affect their attacks and raids negatively. They can recover efficiency by returning to port.

[Nirosi]

Maybe naval units should have an efficiency number like ground and air units. It would be reduced every turn they are at sea and have combat including raiding convoys. Reduced efficiency would affect their attacks and raids negatively. They can recover efficiency by returning to port.

Naval unit do all have an efficiency number and low number do impact combat effectiveness. But subs do no use efficiency when raiding. The rule could probably be amended to remove oilers uses for subs if it unbalances thinks. But personally I think it will affect the game very little to keep it or not. Seems more of a "in theory" problem.

Unless deeply mistaken, I see this oiler think as a theoretical problem. I have a hard time believing it can actually happen in practice to have u-boats at sea for a year (or even the 225 historical days) for a very simple reason: u-boats get damaged and need to go back to port for repair. Even by regrouping only "survivors" in a "long term group" (meaning only three u-boats doing a single extra turn or two of attacks maybe once or twice a year, certainly not game breaking) it is hard to image it been possible. 225 days (the historical record it seems), means... 16 turns, a year, means 26 turns! By late 1940, the UK should have 1941 escorts, my experience is that at 1941 escort, u-boats can not get even close of 16 turns in a row without damage. By late 1941, the UK should have 1942 tech, and then from time to time, U-boats can actually even receive 5 hits at once! Not common of course, but possible, so by then just finishing a normal patrol of just 5 turns without hits is quite hard.

But yes, it could be removed "just in case".

[Nirosi]

Of course, one could also argue that u-boats counters should always be at sea non-stop. The rule does mention that a counter represents only active submarines at sea. So one could argue, that the counters at sea simply represents the mission area where individual subs do continuously come and go from, and to, port. But that is maybe an argument not worth bringing now. After a loot of touch and go, BoA seems very balanced if we look at most AARs.

[AlvaroSousa]

Uboats were rotating in and out but always at sea. Many things in WP are abstracted to make things easier to manage.

Likely you won't see oilers in the next game. They have caused more problems than solved.

But as the Allies your first priority is to build against the uboats. Even if you get crippled as long as you are advancing this cause you will be fine. You should always invest as if Donitz convinced Hitler to have 300 uboats in 1941 at sea. Thats 10 counters which is what I usually build.

The uboats are basically a delay against the Western Allies for what they do. It's a balance of.... do I want to pound Russia or delay the Allies? If you build zero uboats you will have a massive force against the Russians. But then be prepared for the Western Allies to come knocking on your door in 1942.