Gibraltar

[baronvonmunchausen]

Hi,
I have now played two games against humans and one AI, in which the axis go for Spain/Gibraltar after France.
There seems to be NO WAY of stopping this as allies. You can try to ship a corps or even an army to Gigraltar, but you the delay caused in maybe 2-3 turns max.
Once Gibraltar is axis, the game tilts heavily to the Axis as it saves Italy, and generally prevents any real Allied action in the Med.
The mobilisation bonus for the US is around 10-15% if I remember correctly, which seems to make it worthwhile as not very much. The only other consequence I have seem is it delayed Romanian entry into the war.

Do you all feel that there is a defence against this move? Or that it is not the end of the world even if it is inevitable?

Curious for your points of view because I see no reason for Axis not to do this move every game.

[Chernobyl]

10-15% USA swing is significant and would give me serious pause. IIRC Italy also takes a morale hit does it not?
In a MP game I also wonder to what extent this creates a headache for Axis to have to defend even more coastline?
And does it really permanently seal up the Med against a human opponent, especially once the USA joins?

I think the conventional wisdom on "optimal" Axis play is to prioritize minimizing USA mobilization, and I think Elvis has a couple game descriptions where Axis went for Spain and it sounded like a mistake.

All that being said, you could be totally right. It definitely creates a huge naval problem/dilemma for UK, and provides strategic opportunities for Axis to optimize their naval deployment (once you determine there are zero Allied ships in the Med, that frees up various assets). If you are smart you can optimize NM gain from destroying Spanish units (perhaps give Italy some kill shots to boost their NM since every point has a much larger effect on their % than for Germany), add some HQ and unit experience gain for maximum benefit. Plunder is always helpful, and Spain provides decent income and nifty ports. Gibraltar is a NM objective for what it's worth, and the Surrender Bonus can't hurt Axis either (though the timing probably isn't particularly optimal).

[baronvonmunchausen]

I would have to double check the 10-15% numbers, that is what my memory is telling me.

As to defending the coastline, yes it is a longer coastline, but you practically want to invite the Allies to land here, as it is a longer trek to Germany.

The biggest downside as I said was Romania staying out of the war against Russia, and I had to spend 150MPPs to swing them over.

As for the NM hit.... it appeared minimal. And as I have said elsewhere, who cares, NM does not really count for anything much in the game, IMHO.

I like your point about destroying units with Italians as it gives a bigger NM bonus.

[El_Condoro]

As well as its mobilization level, the 10-15% swing also affects a country's production output (MPPs), so 10-15% from early on (late 1940?) will definitely give the US a big production boost.

[Tanaka]

Hi,
I have now played two games against humans and one AI, in which the axis go for Spain/Gibraltar after France.
There seems to be NO WAY of stopping this as allies. You can try to ship a corps or even an army to Gigraltar, but you the delay caused in maybe 2-3 turns max.
Once Gibraltar is axis, the game tilts heavily to the Axis as it saves Italy, and generally prevents any real Allied action in the Med.
The mobilisation bonus for the US is around 10-15% if I remember correctly, which seems to make it worthwhile as not very much. The only other consequence I have seem is it delayed Romanian entry into the war.

Do you all feel that there is a defence against this move? Or that it is not the end of the world even if it is inevitable?

Curious for your points of view because I see no reason for Axis not to do this move every game.

If you watch my series with the Colonel where I do just that you will see it is not the end of the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2NupXC ... 1ANvh1rqEC

It takes so much extra time and resources that it delays and effects Barbarossa and you will pay for that...

And like others have said it leaves you more exposed to have to defend much more territory and remove units you would otherwise be able to use elsewhere...

[ThunderLizard11]

Is there a 10-15% mobilization bonus?

[baronvonmunchausen]

(I do not know the mobilisation penalty, if someone who knows would kindly tell us...for Spain and then Gibraltar )

I try to reduce mobilisation by not taking low countries, or doing anything in Yugoslavia or Greece, etc...

@tanaka Thank you for posting your game on Youtube. In the two times I have seen Spain taken, (once as Germans and once on the receiving end as allies), Spain was conquered in 2 turns and Gibraltar taken 2 turns later. So 4 turns in total. Add to that 1-2 turns of prepositioning on the Spanish border and repairing units after fall of France. SO 5-6 turns. If France falls before mid-June, there is really no problem in taking Spain before the end of September. Ample time to operate east.

You get peace and tranquility for the rest of the game in the Med.

With Gibraltar, you also get a "Malta effect" against the UK in the Med for the rest of the game.

[BillRunacre]

(I do not know the mobilisation penalty, if someone who knows would kindly tell us...for Spain and then Gibraltar )

An Axis declaration of war on Spain increases US mobilization by 8-15%, while advancing on Gibraltar provides a further 5-15%. So 13-30% in total.

[Zeckke]

(I do not know the mobilisation penalty, if someone who knows would kindly tell us...for Spain and then Gibraltar )

An Axis declaration of war on Spain increases US mobilization by 8-15%, while advancing on Gibraltar provides a further 5-15%. So 13-30% in total.

unless you get the message "USA is impressed" that happend if you can get Gibraltar while surrender Spain, then USA gets angst and no mobilizacion happend in the pacific