Missing Fortress/Infantry Flak/MG Battalions

[Wiedrock]

Those are the guys supposed to be using the "static ground attack Flak".
Mots likely OB:580 + OB:581 - see the 4th, eventually also the first three.
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... ungFla.htm

Those were rather short-living or somewhat "Included"/attached (not sure) to existing Divisions.
Most likely OB:583 - see the 4th.
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... derung.htm

[Wiedrock]

Edited Scenario Ai vs AI, Turn 200, only modding was changing Support Squad Ground Element CV value from 1 to 2 (brings AI closer to the real VE-Day ).
As we can see no Unit ever used any of these Guns.

staticFlak-AT.png (59.77 KiB) Viewed 699 times

[Joel Billings]

I thought you found that the CV values were hard coded at 0. Is that not the case? BTW, when running AI vs AI C41's, you will get a huge spread in terms of ending date, so you need to run the test multiple times to know whether any change is actually having an impact. I've seen end dates from Oct 44 to May 45 using the same exact version.

[Wiedrock]

BTW, when running AI vs AI C41's, you will get a huge spread in terms of ending date, so you need to run the test multiple times to know whether any change is actually having an impact. I've seen end dates from Oct 44 to May 45 using the same exact version.

Yea the RNG is little harsh sometimes. Vanilla I've had 2 early 45 Endings and 2CV for Support gave both times ~mid April then I had another 2CV test but with increased Support Need values for some Elements (that one ended VP check end of 1944) - German Victory.

I thought you found that the CV values were hard coded at 0. Is that not the case?

Hmm, not that I am aware of. Support has normal 1 CV value.

[Wiedrock]

Working on the correction of German MG SU TOE's manpower I came back to this.
As pointed out before the following guns are not being used at all since the TOEs are not being used currently. Also you can see in the following, the converted Flaks do not have any AA value. They are considered a "Static AT Gun".

Fortress and Heavy MGs.png (404.18 KiB) Viewed 344 times

Here you can see the applicable TOEs in a nutshell. The last one is the supposed one with the "Static AT Guns" but I have no idea where the Mortar and Panzerschreck are comming from. They are not included in the appropriate KSTNs but are the exact same setup as the "normal MG Battalions".

Fortress and Heavy MG Battalions.png (1.28 MiB) Viewed 344 times

The units which historically used these weapons are alltogether missing (38+1 SUs are missing (the one is a bit special)). Many were already formed in August, as "überschwere (s.s.) M.G. Bataillone (2cm)", as mentioned that's the ones which would be using the "Static AT Guns" (see the 4th TOE in the picture above (missing the 12xMortars and the 54xPanzerschrecks in game, game OBs are OB:580 and OB:581). But in any event, they ALL pretty quickly were renamed into "Festungs-Flak-Bataillon", I read that the reason was to make more clear what their capabilities were (commanders seem to have used them like normal HMG Battalions which made them be devastated pretty quickly - a Flak in the end isnt a HMG - who might have guessed). So from then on theoretically the Units may rather have used the first three TOEs posted above (without Panzerschreck and Mortars - as the game's TOEs (and following example picture 4) suggests) but those were then capable of AA duties and not just fit for Ground attacks - so the "Static AT Guns" are then missplaced.

Lexikon Liste.png (662.91 KiB) Viewed 344 times

Following an exampleof an strength report. The 20 Flak/Company were AAMG 151.

MG Battalion example.png (579.96 KiB) Viewed 344 times

[Wiedrock]

Again the Lexikon Overview and a list with the missing Units and information from G.Tessin's book (Band 13 Landstreitkräfte 801-13400).
Blue marked are the Battalions which became Army Flak Brigade parts and used most likely all the Drilling. Number 837 also used Drilling.
Further info on the Army Flak Brigades and the missing Drillings MG/Flak I've posted here (Missing Army Flak Brigades and their 'Drilling').

[Denniss]

Probably best to have these odd fortress cannons killed (or at least their production/conversion), the Flak43 Zwilling and MG151/20 Drilling added and OBs 580/581 converted to standard Army Flak Bn with standard Flak guns.
a 3rd OB could be added and made into a half-Brigade with 12x 2cm quad, 12x 3,7cm Twin and 96x 2cm Triple.
Currently I just have OB 919 coming close to it with 36x 2cm single and motorized

[Wiedrock]

Probably best to have these odd fortress cannons killed (or at least their production/conversion), [...] and OBs 580/581 converted to standard Army Flak Bn with standard Flak guns.

Yes that sounds alright and probably the easiest thing to do. Altough those are "Infantry Flak Battalions", important distinction. ...or you keep the "Fortress" as a distinction, so "Fortress Flak Battalion"?

Btw. the "Static AT" guns perform much better at the defence (tested with Fort lvl 1, no planes) than regular Flak, either because their Barrels are "ligth guns" or because they are another Ground Element Type (or a mix of both), not sure. Their FPE (and therefore their hits) is ~x2,5-3 times more then regular Flak.

What could be done alternatively is to put an "DEPLETED" (or so) Upgrade condition to those MG-units into the later "Fest.Fla.Btl." with then actual AA-Flak in them (36+9/8) and until then they are "MG" (36+9/8 statics) so things would be clear to players (MG vs Flak). This would require 2 more TOEs just for those "MG → Flak" Battalions (one with 3,7cm and one with Quads).
And simply ignore the supposed [Panzerschrecks/Mortars/"only using 2cm static"] in the TOE I've posted. There are I think all the "(s.s.)" KSTNs available/existing (see attachment). The portrayed TOEs posted before are from January 1945. There exist 2 special KSTNs which were only released on 01.11.1944 for Staff and [2cm x 12 + 18 x Panzerschreck], those most likely were created since the Flaks were simply overrun early on. Both those KSTNs are "weirdly separate" (number wise - see attached end of PDF file) from all the other "s.s." KSTNs, which were created Aug/Oct already and (I assume) were also continued being used for the later "Inf.Fla.Btl." rename.

I think important is to have Flak named units only/always have AA in it, so substitutions are off the table and "MG"=static non-AA and "Flak"=regular AA-Flak.

[...] the Flak43 Zwilling and MG151/20 Drilling added [...]
a 3rd OB could be added and made into a half-Brigade with 12x 2cm quad, 12x 3,7cm Twin and 96x 2cm Triple.

Yep that's for the other Thread, sounds alright to simply directly apply that to the later created units.

[Denniss]

In "Fla nach Vorn" i read that the units were placed clsoe to the frontline as long as they ran under ss MG Bn so specialist were quickly wasted. That improved once they were renamed/classified as Fla-Bn (not Flak!)