Possible MWiF combat sequence of play error

[Courtenay]

I believe that MWif makes a mistake in the sequence of play during combat. This only affects half-flipped results when some attacking unit(s) must be automatically flipped.

Attacking units can be required to be disorganized as a result of HQ support, AA usage, or artillery bombardment. RAW states that "an HQ that successfully provided HQ support becomes disorganized (only if it succeeded inproviding HQ support) after advancing after combat (see 11.16.5) regardless of the combat result," "If firing against aircraft providing ground support, the AA unit becomes disorganized after the Advancing after combat step," "An ART that bombards is disorganized after the Advancing after combat step (see 11.16.5) regardless of the combat result." That is, all such units are disorganized "after the Advancing after combat step."

Unfortunately, this is ambiguous. Do these flips happen before or during the disorganization step, which occurs immediately after the advance after combat step?

MWiF lets the attacker flip any required disorganizations before executing half-flipped results, which sometimes (depending on rounding) means that fewer attacking units are disorganized than would be the case if the units were flipped before the disorganization step.

I believe that these units should be flipped before the disorganization step. If the rule meant "during the disorganization step", it could have said that. Unfortunately, one could equally argue that if "before the disorganization step" was meant, the rules could have said that, too. "After the Advancing after combat step" is unforuntately ambiguous because it is not precise on whether this is before or during the disorganization step. I think it more logical that it should be before. As support for this position, the half-disorganized rule states "The half disorganized result means that during the disorganization step (see 11.16.5), half of the surviving organized attackers remain organized, owner’s choice." The only reason that "organized" adjective is necessary is if there could be disorganized attackers, and that could only happen if the units that are forced to be disorganized are already disorganized.

What are people's opinions about this? Certainly my group always flipped AA and HQs before doing half flips.

[Courtenay]

Belatedly, I looked this up in the FAQ. This makes clear that the units should be flipped before executing the half-flipped results.

Do units flipping anyway due to HQ Support or terrain count as face up units for purpose of Half Flipped result?

NO, this is judged during Facing (11.16.5) and the other units are turned face down during Advance after combat which is before facing). Date 29/11/2007

[rkr1958]

So if I understand this correctly, what MWIF allows one to do, that is flip HQs that provided HQ support or AA that provided AA fire, as part of the required half flips is incorrect?

If so, would these units count in determining the number of units that are half flipped? For example, a half flip result with 10 units total, an HQ providing support & AA firing. The HQ & AA are flipped. How many of the remaining 8 units must be flipped?

The way it works now, it would be 3 as I would included the HQ & AA in the 5 of 10 half flipped.

[Courtenay]

If you have ten units, with an HQ & an AA gun, by the time you get to the half flip, there are eight unflipped units left. Half of them, four, would have to be flipped. The HQ & AA do not count in either numerator or denominator. So in this case you wind up with six flipped units, not five.

Thus if there were ten units and an HQ (no AA), that would leave nine, of which four would have to be flipped, so in this example, the number of units flipped (1+4) is exactly the same (5) either way.

If there were nine units and an HQ, then again four units plus the HQ would have to be flipped, which means 5 units should be flipped, unlike MWiF which only requires four in this case.

Similarly, if there is one required flip and an odd number of attacking units, you will have to flip one more, while if there are an even number, you will flip the same number as before.

[Courtenay]

The FAQ answer pointed out one more place that units could be disorganized after a combat: if they are disorganized by advancing after combat, either because of having to spend too many movement points, or because of overrunning (which also spends too many movement points.) Again, those units are not counted for disorganization purposes. For example, if six units attack, and three advance and are disorganized, then one more unit will have to be disorganized (1/2 of 3) in the disorganization step, for a total of four units disorganized.

[Centuur]

Interesting. It looks like that you are right here.

According to RAW advancing after combat comes before facing. And the rules on HQ support or AA guns state that the units involved are disorganised at the end of the advancing after combat stage. That's before facing. One should not even need the FAQ to make that conclusion.

FAQ

Do units flipping anyway due to HQ Support or terrain count as face up units for purpose of Half Flipped result?
NO, this is judged during Facing (11.16.5) and the other units are turned face down during Advance after combat which is
before facing).

So this is a bug.

[Courtenay]

Fortunately,if one realizes this is a bug, one can just flip units to get the right number of flipped units for HQ support, AA, and bombardment. I have not tested how this works for advancing after combat; I rarely flip units advancing after combat. I have a horrible feeling that MWiF might get this wrong.