SM-3 missiles

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Kobu
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 8:36 pm

SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

Hi

While testing the SM-3 family of missiles I have encountered some bugs.
TEST01 is for the first case and TEST02 is for the second case.

The first is with the SM-3 block 1B, the missile goes off course and when the data link ends and it must search for the target, it changes its state to "Target: none" and flies without a target passing next to the target.

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One thing I like is that among the options in this confrontation it is also contemplated that the missile simply hits close to the target without causing damage. It is difficult to accurately hit a moving ship at the speed that the missile is traveling.

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The second is with the SM-3 Block 2A missile which has the same behavior as the previous one, only that it passes closer to the target.

I think there is something wrong with the data links as I have reported several times that it affects certain weapons.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... p?t=397780
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p5133241

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Another bug that I have noticed and that I believe has already been mentioned (at least in other situations) is that ECM countermeasures count twice when determining if they jam the missile.


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Against the DF-21D the SM-3 Block 2A has no problem and intercepts it, however the SM-3 Block 1B still has the same problem.


Regards
Attachments
TEST02.rar
(19.85 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
TEST01.rar
(20.05 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
caelunshun
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:44 am

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by caelunshun »

Yes, same as this issue: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=399827

Some people are claiming it is fixed, but your scenario is evidence that the issue persists.
DWReese
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Location: Miami, Florida

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by DWReese »

It's definitely NOT fixed, at least not through version 14.
Kobu
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

Hi

Reading the other topics and seeing that some achieve interceptions and others do not, I have managed to replicate both cases (when it does intercept and when it does not).

Scenario 1TEST shows when the SM-3 has no problem intercepting the DF-21D.

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Scenario 2TEST shows when the SM-3 misses the target and passes by.

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The difference between the two scenarios is the distance at which the SM-3 is fired, in the first it is fired shortly after the DF-21D is launched and in scenario 2 it is fired almost in the final phase.

Depending on the assets you have, you may be able to shoot sooner or later and that is where the problem is.

In this scenario, if you let everything happen normally, the SBX 1 platform helps track the DF-21D and there is no problem intercepting it, but in other scenarios where you only have the destroyer or for whatever reason you fire when the DF-21D is more close you will never be able to intercept it.

As I said before, for me the problem is in the data link, in scenario 1 it is cut off when the SM-3 is 8NM from the DF-21D and the SM-3 can already track the target by its own means, in scenario 2 On the contrary, the data link is cut when the SM-3 is 30NM from the DF-21D, making the SM-3 unable to find the DF-21D and passing by it.

Regards
Attachments
2TEST.rar
(24.5 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
1TEST.rar
(22.03 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
caelunshun
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:44 am

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by caelunshun »

Here is an additional scenario where the issue occurs consistently.
Attachments
ABM Testbed.zip
(21.9 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
thewood1
Posts: 10131
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Location: Boston

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

Here is my standard ABM test scenario when I was testing without long range radar. Using only the SPY radar of a DDG to watch for threats. If you run this, you'll see that the SM-3s all launch and several BMs are killed. If you go through the log of a previous run, I think all the SM-3s are accounted for. Its hard to track because they seem to be constantly retargeting.

So there is no long range radar involved. The task force is self-reliant. This one has DF-26s. These are even more difficult targets than DF-21s. Its still a hit % less than 50%, but still plausible. How is this scenario different than those posted.
Attachments
2024-2-24_15.5.19.zip
(101.6 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
thewood1
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

caelunshun wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 7:37 pm Here is an additional scenario where the issue occurs consistently.
I modded the file from above. SM-3 interceptions are very typically less than 50% and I always fire two SAMs. In fact, I usually fire four.

Changes I made were to give a clean start and to let the DDG use its own radar. I also wanted the DDG to fire freely to ascertain better how the SM-3s beahved.

Deleted the in-flight SM-3
Dropped the DF-21D contact
Removed the SBX
Changed WRA to fire two SM-3s
Changed ROE to Tight.

I have attached the modded scenario. First SM-3 missed and second hit.

Here is a snap of the message window.

Screenshot 2024-02-24 155507.jpg
Screenshot 2024-02-24 155507.jpg (614.29 KiB) Viewed 849 times
Attachments
ABM Testbed 2.zip
(18.62 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
thewood1
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

And to make sure it wasn't a fluke, I ran it again.

Screenshot 2024-02-24 160518.jpg
Screenshot 2024-02-24 160518.jpg (609.26 KiB) Viewed 848 times
thewood1
Posts: 10131
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Location: Boston

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

What I'm seeing is the SM-3s are firing way too early when the SBX is involved. And when they pass by the BM, they lock up the WRA slots so the DDG never fires SM-3s again. I have reported this issue with SM-6s also. I'm not sure its a true bug, but more a faulty system design. But Having the SBX provide early warning seems to do the opposite of what you would expect.
Kobu
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

Let's try to clarify the situation a little.

We all have to test the same thing or we won't reach any conclusion.

There are many combinations of ASBM interceptors, ASBM missiles, sensors to track and guide these, attack geometry...

The SBX 1 platform, as Thewood says, is more annoying than helpful (it helps follow the missile throughout its entire trajectory) but it does not allow the SM-3 to be guided correctly.

Without the SBX 1 platform I have no problem intercepting DF-21 and DF-26, with SBX 1 in play (this is where I got confused in the first tests) the SM-3E Block 2A is capable of intercepting at long range the DF- 21 (I don't know why this is the only time it works) and this is where my problems in understanding the situation began.

Summing up for the devs, the debate is whether the SBX 1 platform is capable of passing guidance information to the SM-3 or not. In any case, having the platform in play makes ballistic missile operations buggy.

As an anecdote of how difficult this topic is, in one of my tests I did not understand why a DDG was capable of intercepting an ASBM launching an SM-3 and in another test when I was going to shoot at the same distance it told me that the target was out of envelope.
The problem was that in the first test the distance between the launch of the ASBM and the ship was 546 NM, making the trajectory of the ASBM in a way that favored interception, as opposed to my other test where the distance was 496 NM and it did not allow me to shoot the SM-3. Once the distance between the launcher and the ship increased in the second test, the SM-3 could fire.


Regards
thewood1
Posts: 10131
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Location: Boston

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

"In this scenario, if you let everything happen normally, the SBX 1 platform helps track the DF-21D and there is no problem intercepting it, but in other scenarios where you only have the destroyer or for whatever reason you fire when the DF-21D is more close you will never be able to intercept it"

"Without the SBX 1 platform I have no problem intercepting DF-21 and DF-26, with SBX 1 in play (this is where I got confused in the first tests) the SM-3E Block 2A is capable of intercepting at long range"

Are those statements contradictory that come from two different posts?


"The problem was that in the first test the distance between the launch of the ASBM and the ship was 546 NM, making the trajectory of the ASBM in a way that favored interception, as opposed to my other test where the distance was 496 NM and it did not allow me to shoot the SM-3. Once the distance between the launcher and the ship increased in the second test, the SM-3 could fire."

As I have been saying for days now. Its about the geometry. One part of the geometry is the engagement range of a very high altitude target for the SAM. The other is the shape of the parabolic curve for some ballistic missiles that exposes it to different counter threats. Up to a certain point the BM's parabolic curve flattens as the range to target elongates. If the range to target is shorter, the curve's altitude component increases, to a certain point.

And all of that has big impacts on engagement in real life and in the game. Again, its why positioning of the DDG is so critically important. The relatively easy shot is when the BM is going to pass coming straight over DDG's or close to it. Again in real life and the game. If you look at a lot of the real life testing, the most difficult shot is when the missile's trajectory is a not passing any where close to over the DDG. In the end, SM-3s are critical for long range defense of a task force. For full theater defense, you have to have multiple DDGs positioned along threat axes. Game and real life.

As to the SBX, I have read a lot on that over the last few years and I'm not sure what to make of it. Its main purpose is sorting out real RVs from decoys and clutter. It only comes into play on mid-course exoatmospheric shots. It has had very limited testing. There is an integration that has to happen with any interceptor system. Right now, in real life, there is no real data link to the SAM. The SBX info is passed through several nodes, to the Aegis system, then to the missile. It appears when the IR sensor on the SM-3 locks on, the Aegis datalink is severed. The SBX makes sure it points to a real RV and not a decoy before the severance. The biggest issue in US ABM is the integration between long range tracking and missile control radar/systems. Its still a huge issue. Speed of information transfer has driven billions in investment.

In CMO's world, I'm not sure how that gets all tied together to show the weakness and fragility of the long-range IRBM and ICBM ABM engagements. Should there be a datalink from SBX to Aegis? Should it be abstracted to be a link to the missile? Should SBX only be used to lower the odds of a decoy drawing an SM-3 in? I have a hard time complaining about any of this because its nowhere near settled in real life.
Kobu
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

Are those statements contradictory that come from two different posts?
I already said yes. My problem was that when I started testing the first thing I did was use the SBX 1 as support for the destroyers and for reasons that I still do not understand, the SM-3E Block 2A is capable of intercepting the DF-21 at a great distance from the destroyer with help of the SBX 1, for everything else the SBX 1 only bugs the engagements.
As I have been saying for days now. Its about the geometry. One part of the geometry is the engagement range of a very high altitude target for the SAM. The other is the shape of the parabolic curve for some ballistic missiles that exposes it to different counter threats. Up to a certain point the BM's parabolic curve flattens as the range to target elongates. If the range to target is shorter, the curve's altitude component increases, to a certain point.

And all of that has big impacts on engagement in real life and in the game. Again, its why positioning of the DDG is so critically important. The relatively easy shot is when the BM is going to pass coming straight over DDG's or close to it. Again in real life and the game. If you look at a lot of the real life testing, the most difficult shot is when the missile's trajectory is a not passing any where close to over the DDG. In the end, SM-3s are critical for long range defense of a task force. For full theater defense, you have to have multiple DDGs positioned along threat axes. Game and real life.
I understand it perfectly, I was just contributing an anecdote that had no influence on the "bug" that I was reporting, but perhaps it will help others understand how difficult this topic is and all the variables that influence it.
As to the SBX, I have read a lot on that over the last few years and I'm not sure what to make of it. Its main purpose is sorting out real RVs from decoys and clutter. It only comes into play on mid-course exoatmospheric shots. It has had very limited testing. There is an integration that has to happen with any interceptor system. Right now, in real life, there is no real data link to the SAM. The SBX info is passed through several nodes, to the Aegis system, then to the missile. It appears when the IR sensor on the SM-3 locks on, the Aegis datalink is severed. The SBX makes sure it points to a real RV and not a decoy before the severance. The biggest issue in US ABM is the integration between long range tracking and missile control radar/systems. Its still a huge issue. Speed of information transfer has driven billions in investment.

In CMO's world, I'm not sure how that gets all tied together to show the weakness and fragility of the long-range IRBM and ICBM ABM engagements. Should there be a datalink from SBX to Aegis? Should it be abstracted to be a link to the missile? Should SBX only be used to lower the odds of a decoy drawing an SM-3 in? I have a hard time complaining about any of this because its nowhere near settled in real life.
I don't know exactly what to expect from this platform either. Right now bug ASBM engagements.

As for how it should be represented in the game, that is what we have to discuss once the bug we mentioned is fixed.

In my opinion, there is currently a lack of a common datalink that refers to ASBM interception and that can unite the platforms that are in charge of this task.
Once we have this we can put limits on this transmission of information. For example, give a greater probability of interception when the guidance is done directly through the destroyer and lower that probability for more distant interceptions in which more systems are involved and there is greater latency between all the systems that share tracking information.

Regards
thewood1
Posts: 10131
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

When you say "we", I hope you mean CMO and the real militaries of the world. Because I'm not sure it truly exists or may even exist in the timeframe of what CMO covers. The US BMD is a very kludged together system of data connections. Just look at the almost 100 billion invested GMD. And for almost naught in true capability. As to Aegis, there has been only one successful test of the SM-3 IIA on longer range intercept of an IRBM target. All other intercept tests are done within the range of Aegis.

You can say its a bug, but it tracks very close to real-world.
Kobu
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

I don't understand where you're going now.
Several of us on the forum thought that there was something wrong with the ASBM engagements and we have now deduced that the problem is with a specific unit (SBX 1).

Yes, there is a bug with that unit (SBX 1), it's pretty obvious. Then we can discuss how you should or should not act based on the publicly available information. Whether it is capable of passing tracking information to other platforms or not, how reliable that information is, etc...

Regards
thewood1
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

I'm just saying that the bug might actually be in how the system is designed in CMO. I don't think the bug, if there is one, is necessarily in the final outcome. It might be that the SM-3s should even be fired at that range using SBX tracking.

You also never address how you got it to work with the SBX. First you said it worked that 24 hours later you say it doesn't work.
Kobu
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

You also never address how you got it to work with the SBX. First you said it worked that 24 hours later you say it doesn't work.
Because I don't know, if you go to my second post you can see a very specific case where it does work (SM-3 against DF-21 at long distance). Seeing this case I thought that the SBX-1 is capable of providing guidance to the SM-3 but removing this very specific case the only thing it does is bug the confrontations and does not allow us to obtain the normal results that others are obtaining.
I'm just saying that the bug might actually be in how the system is designed in CMO. I don't think the bug, if there is one, is necessarily in the final outcome. It might be that the SM-3s should even be fired at that range using SBX tracking.
Have you tried the scenarios I have sent?

I have tested yours and seen that everything works as it should and then I have looked for the reasons why mine don't.

Every time I open a post you do the same thing: mess.

Many people were not able to intercept ASBM and now we know why, but for you everything works correctly whether you get some results or others.

In my first post there are two scenarios where no SM-3 is able to intercept any ASBM, if we remove one unit the SM-3 are able to intercept the ASBM without problem but you still say that there is no bug.
The only thing you achieve is making long posts and confusing all the results that lead us to a solution.

Regards
thewood1
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

Its called a discussion. Its the point of the forum. Its why we post. Or it should be. Every comment and question should be tested. What seems like a mess helps the devs narrow down issues. Otherwise, it would take forever to solve problems. If people can't handle counter opinions and arguments, they should stay off of the web.
Kobu
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by Kobu »

thewood1 wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 3:22 pm Its called a discussion. Its the point of the forum. Its why we post. Or it should be. Every comment and question should be tested. What seems like a mess helps the devs narrow down issues. Otherwise, it would take forever to solve problems. If people can't handle counter opinions and arguments, they should stay off of the web.
And so it is, but you don't know where to stop. Check the scenarios in my first post and tell me if you see a bug or if it is normal for you. In this way we leave things clear and we can continue moving forward.


Regards
thewood1
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

You could try to make it a little easier by naming the zips and the scen files the same.
thewood1
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Re: SM-3 missiles

Post by thewood1 »

So from your two test scenarios with one test run each. I completely removed the SBX in a couple runs to more complete. I also made the DDG auto detectable to make it easier.

DF-26B no hit with and without SBX using SM-3 IB
DF-26B no hit with and without SBX using SM-3 IIA

I swapped in DF-21Ds...

DF-21D hit with and without SBX using SM-3 IB
DF-21D hit with and without SBX using SM-3 IIA

A quick pic of the DF-21A hits with SBX in place.

IB
Screenshot 2024-02-25 112142.jpg
Screenshot 2024-02-25 112142.jpg (841.61 KiB) Viewed 726 times
IIA
Screenshot 2024-02-25 114604.jpg
Screenshot 2024-02-25 114604.jpg (755.34 KiB) Viewed 726 times
Same result without SBX, just closer to the ship.

IB
Screenshot 2024-02-25 115028.jpg
Screenshot 2024-02-25 115028.jpg (634.08 KiB) Viewed 726 times
IIA
Screenshot 2024-02-25 115513.jpg
Screenshot 2024-02-25 115513.jpg (672.58 KiB) Viewed 726 times
What does this tell you? Look at the scenario I posted in the other SM-3 thread. Without the long-range tracking radar, the DDGs shoot down DF-26s like they are ducks on a bog in Northern Maine in fall. The DF-26B is an IRBM and when firing

...sorry...premature submit.
Last edited by thewood1 on Sun Feb 25, 2024 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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