Thrashing Around in Russia - Again. RKhan (S) vs Strategator (A)

[Strategator]

Hi everyone, welcome again to our joint AAR with myself and RKhan.

Some readers might have noticed there is a very similiar thread below. This is because RKhan and I aleady startet a PBEM some time ago.
We are both new to WITE 2. This is/was a learning game for us so we are being very casual and looking for any advice.
RKhan offered to restart if I need to redo the first few turns. In our first game we were on turn 8 and I thought I would be happy so far.

But as you can read in the previous AAR and some comments in there, I absolutely failed the starting turns. As said, I am very new to the game and absolutely underestimated the importance of pocketing in turn 1.
First I insisted in going on with the game, as my point was to learn from practice and I did not want to redo turn 1 again and again.
But some thinking and a break during the weekend made me rethink that opinion.

So anyway, here we want to start our new AAR

House Rules:
No temporary motorization
No paradrops
No naval invasions more than 10 hexes from a friendly, non-isolated hex
No airfield bombing after T1
TB locked.

Here are my learning effects from game 1, I wanted to focus on. A lot of reading manual, guides and tutorials made me confident to do a half-decent turn 1 this time.
I learned a lot about the mechanics of:

- Pocketing
- special turn 1 rules
- the routing of routed, shattered, retreatet units
- overall strategy (focusing south/middle/north). For a matter of OPSEC I don't want to talk to much about my plans here in detail.

Turn 1 took me almost 5 hours this time, lol.

I managed to do a rather big center pocket and a full pocket in the baltic region.
I planned to do another pocket south, but failed, due to...missplanning I guess. I ran out of fast divisions.

All in All it was (hopefully) much better than last time, here are some screenshots.

South after.png (5.88 MiB) Viewed 1431 times

North end turn.png (4.76 MiB) Viewed 1431 times

Really looking forward to this game and thanks again to RKhan for restarting.

Greetings
Simon

[56ajax]

Goodluck and have fun.

Keep your Assault armies at full command capacity with the best leaders. As far as possible keep motorised units attached to Panzer or Mot corps. (There are some +1s in doing that)

[M60A3TTS]

Sorry, it's just not good enough. You have to cut or block the rail line or you are allowing anything in the vicinity to be moved out by rail.

Oh well, next time.

[RKhan]

Welcome to our second attempt to learn WITE 2.

Here is my situation in the north and center:

t1 before n c.jpg (569.38 KiB) Viewed 1319 times

Strat has choosen to clear out the Baltics, pushing many units into Kurland. They are all depleted due the the ferocity of his attack. I choose to defend at Pskow again this game. Note the interdiction I attempted on the panzer spearhead. Still getting the hang of this.

t1 after n c.jpg (729.27 KiB) Viewed 1319 times

In the center I break the pocket and strand the panzers. I know he put hours into this so I actually feel bad in the process. However, he should get all these units next turn (less the SUs).

t1 after c detail.jpg (441.29 KiB) Viewed 1319 times

[RKhan]

In the south things did not go well for the Axis and I was able to get some units out of Gallacia. Others would not rail and I couldn't figure out why. Perhaps I overloaded the line.

t1 before s.jpg (471.09 KiB) Viewed 1318 times

I ended up with this position. BTW I tend to leave on my depots so I can remember my supply set up.

t1 after s.jpg (730.36 KiB) Viewed 1318 times

[RKhan]

Turn 1 thoughts:

Limited bombing to disrupt the lead panzer. I'm not sure this helps much, but it will hopefully decrease the CV of the units next turn when they move toward the land bridge and Pskow.

t1 air detail.jpg (279.01 KiB) Viewed 1315 times

t1 air detail 2.jpg (181.93 KiB) Viewed 1315 times

Thinking about the pockets, I started two learning games at the same time. My other opponent was an Axis expert from AI games and had perfect pockets. However, this is the turn 5 OOB from that game against my first game with Strategator where he had no effective pockets:

Perfect pockets:

t5 oob.jpg (80.48 KiB) Viewed 1315 times

No pockets:

t5 oob.jpg (87.84 KiB) Viewed 1315 times

It seems the impact of the pockets evaporates soon wrt the on map forces, though of course these are critical turns. Somehow I thought it would be worse. The reserve is definitely worse off in the situation with pockets. Overall its about 6% worse off at turn 5.

I think I read someone here say the first turn isn't as critical as many think and I see the point. But it is important

[TallBlondJohn]

Aha, you are now breaking down the panzer units to seal the pockets - entirely correct, its very rare for the soviets to be able to shift them. Also drop off a few units behind the spearhead, they will hold the corridor and get a little rest. The secret of 1941 is maintaining CPP, so study how to rest units efficiently.

On turn 1, if you see a tank or mech unit batter it so that it routs miles away. If its already cut off that guarantees the rout result.

[Strategator]

Turn 2:
It was a little chaotic for me, as I spread quite a few Units very far in Turn 1 and now startet to reorganize them/send them back to their HQ's.
Even after turn 2 some are still far away from where I wanted them to be.
I wiped the Kurland Pocket, which was indeed pretty full. This screenshot is from the start of the turn.

Kurland Pocket at end of Turn 1

Kurland pocket before.png (907.06 KiB) Viewed 1243 times

Simultaniously I tried to close the large center Pocket again, without pushing to many Units out.
This worked out ok, but not perfect, as you can see below:
Unfortunetly some units routet unintended, others jumped out as I came too near and with some I simply forgot to wait till next round for the pocket to be closed.

Central Pocket.png (5.12 MiB) Viewed 1243 times

Center Pocket.png (6.16 MiB) Viewed 1243 times

In the south I wanted to catch up some of the units that had to escape without rail, but again did not manage to close the pocket.
Though the corridor is pretty dense, most of the units will be able to flee and fight on another day...
At least there where some smaller pockets where I could trap some Units in.

Southern Gap.png (3.51 MiB) Viewed 1243 times

[Strategator]

In the center both Panzergruppen start their way to Smolensk.
Again, due to the chaos in forming the pockets in turn 1 parts the 3rd PzGrp needs to catch up first.
Also the infantry is still bounded to keep the pockets closed so the advance may struggle a little.
I was confident they will be able to catch up in the following turns, so 2nd Panzergruppe is advancing straight towards Orsha and Vitebsk.

AGC at Orsha.png (4.44 MiB) Viewed 1240 times

In terms of overall thoughts and strategies:
I make some use of the Luftwaffe in form of ground support and recon of course.
I set up the logistics, making progress as planed on all the double-lines I intended. Maybe I will have some screenshot in the followong turns.
Administrative stuff like changing HQ's, SU.

The overall focus and coresponding Supply Prios and Asset Prios are at Army Group South + Luftflotte 4.
Despite the failed pockets I think the advantagous terrain in the south should be utilized as long as possbile, maybe giving opportunities for later pockets or hard attacks with german panzers.
First objectives are Odessa ASAP and - heavily dependant on RKhans defensive strategy - maybe a large, hard run to Dnepopetrovsk or an early attack on Kiev.

Thats it for now, thanks all!

[RKhan]

Not an exciting turn for the Soviet side so I'll just show our fallback positions on each front after the turn.

North. Pskov line ready.

t2 after n.jpg (709.02 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

Center. I will defend at Smolensk

t2 after c.jpg (816.47 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

South. Still running away.

t2 after s.jpg (789.24 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

[Strategator]

Turn 3: Nothing too exciting to report.
Still clearing up some of the pockets, especially in center.

Center Pocket.png (6.09 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

My initial plan was to focus on center and south, so I started to relocate SU and push in the Center as hard as possbile to avoid a stallment at Smolensk (which failed, as we will see in future turns).
Still 3rd Panzergruppe is lacking behind, but slowly following up now.
At the End of Turn 3 Center was close to Smolensk, north near Pskov and south had no problems to advance, as RKhan decided to retreat further and avoid an open battle.

AGS advance.png (6.83 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

AGN at Pskov.png (6.16 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

AGC at smolensk.png (6.52 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

[Strategator]

Turn 4:
Again, advancing in the south without real problems.

South Advance.png (4.23 MiB) Viewed 1164 times

Good progress in the north as well, preparing to take Lkov next turn.

But I had one really hard failed attack at Smolenks, where I lost 32 Tanks, which really hurt.

Fail at Smolenks.png (4.45 MiB) Viewed 1164 times

Center Units are assembled to attack Smolenks soon, but the infantry is still lacking behind.

[RKhan]

In the north I can now see his infantry. My strategy is a steady retreat to Leningrad. Ideally, I can always be fighting in level one forts. Supply does not appear to be an issue here. I've seen many people retreat further, to a smaller front, but I like to fight and hope to wear him down slowly - attacking his CPP and fatigue.

This is the after shot. I will leave an infantry in Pskov. I think he's missed the bonus VP already. I've also cut off a sneaky motorized infantry division.

BTW I did turn off the priority 4 depot after I took the pic. It was empty anyway

t4 after n .jpg (764.92 KiB) Viewed 1147 times

In the center I don't see infantry close to the front. Not that I would, my recon is worthless. Not sure if that's me or a Soviet thing.

Anyway, I will now hold this line and retreat where forced to do so. I will maintain a line 3 deep with no bulges. Here is the after position.

Another sneaky motorized unit cut off. There is a pattern in his play...

t4 after c .jpg (812.24 KiB) Viewed 1147 times

In the south I need to see which way he will go now. I hope to defend the Dnepr for a turn or two. I also hope Odessa will hold out for a couple turns but I did not make a big commitment to it.

I suspect he will continue east, in which case I will shift along with him. I don't see keeping Kiev until the bonus VPs run out and I won't try. My concern is that he splits my armies. I want to keep everything betwee him and Stalino.

t5 after s.jpg (551.89 KiB) Viewed 1147 times

[RKhan]

My air force has taken a beating with little to show for it so I take a quiet turn. I'm unsure what to do here. I've seen very different approaches in the AARs, some of which do without the VVS for a long time. I will always choose to fight if possible. Patience is not a virtue of mine.

I want to manage the air war, but not the level of micro management that makes it drudgery. I hope there is a balance.

t4 air .jpg (89.38 KiB) Viewed 1146 times

[Strategator]

Turn 5:

In the North I was able to take Pskov, against no real defence, RKhan retreatet further, only leaving a very small garrison behind.
The North is starting to figuring out as my focus point, as I have pretty good conditions here. Soviet Air Force seems to be pretty lazy here and my supply is almost near to the Panzers.

North Turn 5.png (6.85 MiB) Viewed 1115 times

In the Center I am still doomed to wait for Infantry, but was able to take Smolensk, dealing some heavy Losses to the defending forces.

Fight at Smolenks 1.png (660.64 KiB) Viewed 1115 times

Fight at Smolenks 2.png (743.48 KiB) Viewed 1115 times

Fight at Smolenks 3.png (3.6 MiB) Viewed 1115 times

[Strategator]

In the south I surrounded Odessa, preparing to attack next turn. Therefore I startet to naval Ops, without enemy fighters showing up.

Starting nav Ops.png (481.83 KiB) Viewed 1114 times

Odessa Surrounded.png (3.63 MiB) Viewed 1114 times

[RKhan]

Another quite turn for me, the last one as readers will see. I judge most games don't really get interesting until turn 6-8 and the Soviets have to put up or shut up.

So quicky, in the north the panzers are going east, perhaps thinking to end around Lake Ilmen. Or just outflank Leningrad front. I follow my strategy of steady retreat.

I see his units working north on the far side of Lake Peipus and know I can't hold the Narva against his infantry. So Leningrad front has to draw even with them in about 3-4 turns anyway.

t5 before n.jpg (875.04 KiB) Viewed 1107 times

Final positions. The motorized unit west of Pskov will continue to limp home with no petrol. Note level one forts on the front line, which is my goal.

t5 after n.jpg (919.94 KiB) Viewed 1107 times

[RKhan]

In the center I just show the after pic to save time. I refuse the left flank to allow concentration in the Smolensk area. There is a path of clear terrain from Smolensk north east which worries me. Especially as the panzers make an arrow pointing right at it...

t5 after c.jpg (607.49 KiB) Viewed 1106 times

[RKhan]

In the south an after movement pic as well. He is moving to D town. He could still cross the Dnepr before that. I will keep shifting to match his progress.

t5 after s.jpg (551.89 KiB) Viewed 1102 times

I did not show the air force in the Caucusus which is there to avoid the pilot loss explain by M60 on turn 7. I find having to know these things about the game engine annoying, it seems to me the developer should fix this as a bug. It's not like hundreds of pilots are being shot somewhere for no reason. Anyway, my air game is so bad I can't afford to lose pilots.

It's also an example of my premise that you can model things in too much detail, giving rise to issues like this. Do we really have to have named pilots to make this game work?

(I'm giving an opinion here but please understand I enjoy the game and appreciate the developers)

The all important OOB, much better for him than our first game:

t5 oob.jpg (85.75 KiB) Viewed 1102 times

[Strategator]

In Turn 6 things are getting startet finally.

In the north was a little fighting in the skies. In the battles Rkhan took severe losses in the fighter section and I started to believe in the north I gained clear skies.

Air Kills North.png (711.43 KiB) Viewed 1080 times

Air Kills North 2.png (723.48 KiB) Viewed 1080 times

In the north I continued the advance, having good supplies and ended the turn near Talling, ready to take the town next turn.

North after.png (7.44 MiB) Viewed 1080 times

The supply lines till Pskov where connected and AGN readied up to take the road to Lenningrad, keeping the pressure in the north up.