Retreat Mechanics Differences SC-WiE & SC-ACW

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Hi,
With WiE, retreating units (evading) can not move to the rear through other friendly units. So constantly I see retreating units move up and down the line or worse yet go forward towards the enemy.
In ACW, Units can retreat to the rear through other friendly units.
I was wondering if the ACW retreat mechanism would be desirable for WiE? Basically, I am asking opinions here.

Below is a transcript of a conversation in the comment section on an episode on my YT channel while playing the 1943 scenario. There has been a lot of kind of absurd looking 'retreats'. So a convo got started

JohndiFool:
The issue with retreating is twofold: on the editor side we can mod the max retreat distance: for regular (nonmotorized) infantry it is only 1; for mobile units it is 2. So, if you have a solid wall of friendly units behind the retreating unit, it has nowhere safe to go. 2 hexes deep and the mobile units can't, either. On the hardcoded side it doesn't sufficiently prioritize "safer" hexes, just the fact that it rolled up a Retreat based on the editor settings (50% say), and welp the unit HAS to go somewhere--which unfortunately if it has ye olde solid wall behind it often means moving into a LESS safe hex.
This is mainly due to the nonstacking modus operandi that the series has always been based on. As a player if you have valuable units in the front lines you HAVE to leave a safer (?) retreat path open for them, or they'll just flick back and forth in the face of the enemy unit it dies. Catch-22 since if you do have such gaps the enemy can then possibly exploit them.
I would have sworn that mobile units have "leapfrogged" friendlies in the way you describe @ 4:40 in past games (both mine and here). Nonmobiles as indicated cannot of course with just a range of 1.

Balthazor's Strategic Arcana (Me):
Units can retreat through other units in SC-ACW. It much more realistic, fluid, and satisfying. Later on, in my on going 1846 Conquest of Mexico production going on now with Strategy Wolf Games, you can see the retreat mechanic as described in action for both sides.
So there must be a way that it could be done here...
Not sure what others think, but I would prefer the ACW retreat mechanic to what we are seeing here.

@johndifool:
Feel free to chime in on the forum, I'll add my 2 cents. I currently have given ground-pounders a retreat of 2, mobiles 3.

@el_condoro:
Yes, it's as @johndifool2985 says: in WiE, units retreat 1 hex or 2 for mobile units. In ACW, ground units retreat up to 3 hexes. Easy to mod but it would need a bit of testing to see how it affects the campaigns.

@BalthazorsStrategicArcana (Me)
Yeah I was thinking what other folks thought about this on the WiE forum. I do really prefer the SC-ACW retreat mechanics though...solely my opinion too.
Soon..in my 1846 Mexico series going on now...a comparison can be viewed. Big battles coming soon...and in that game you gotta mass troops together..like it was back then....

[BillRunacre]

Sounds interesting OCB, and the mention of testing made me wonder if this is something someone plans to do in a quick mod?

[Duedman]

II'll add my 2 cents from the YT comments

In in my opinion it was annyoing in ACW. Not so much because of the 3 hexes but because the units could retreat endlessly. Like that one enemy HQ I think I even complained in the forums about. It ran at least 3 times in a row full distance during my turn . Units in SC games can use more movement points retreating than they can in their natural turn. 3hex retreat range in ACW shone a light on that.
In general I think it isnt too bad as it is in WiE. I was affected by unfortunate retreats as well. And retreats on mobile units do work. They usually run to real safety.

[Elessar2]

I can today, IF 3 hexes allows for such. Not sure why 2 doesn't work tho, if that is the implication.

See here @ the time mark from OCB's most-recent vid; an American Sherman has a viable escape route to the NW over a friendly unit, but doesn't take advantage tho despite getting consistently hammered half a dozen times):

https://youtu.be/nfguKNSSbA0?si=832u-RlQkCwv2HrX&t=123

I can see Duedman's point tho: maybe allow units a max of 2 retreats per turn? One, arguably?

[Elessar2]

Just tested, leapfrog retreats DO work; I knew I wasn't going crazy recalling such from past games of mine. In OCB's game, the tank in question had to cross a Major River, so maybe that is why it didn't in his game (or he rolled badly on the 50% chance in question). Tho I thought that controlled rivers didn't give the movement penalty anymore (do you need a road to avoid such?). No, forgot that only Light Tanks have a Retreat Range of 2-regulars and heavies only have 1. So I'll suggest to the devs that they give all mobile land units a 2 there.

[BillRunacre]

By mobile land units, do you mean literally all land units or are you thinking some should be better left at 1 hex?

I am thinking that a good testing ground for a change will be the forthcoming beta for our Pacific game, especially the fighting in the China/Burma/India theater.

[Elessar2]

Just tanks and mechanized units, which in vanilla would be 4 units, tho arguably Recon and the Cavalry units might also qualify.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

By mobile land units, do you mean literally all land units or are you thinking some should be better left at 1 hex?

I am thinking that a good testing ground for a change will be the forthcoming beta for our Pacific game, especially the fighting in the China/Burma/India theater.

Yes at the very least I think a revisit of the retreat mechanic is worth a look.

Btw..in lots of board wargames that I have played through the decades, there are a lot of different examples of unit retreat mechanisms. In the cases where a unit had to retreat through another friendly unit, sometimes the unit that was crossed would get disrupted. In other games not. Most of the games I played where retreat was called for was for the unit to try (if at all possible) to retreat away from the attacking unit(s). Priority in some games was towards better supply if that was a component in the game, or towards a friendly town. In almost all cases though, if multiple hexes were called for in the retreat, then the max number allowed or called for had to be attempted away from the primary attacking unit(s).

Some of the recommendations above sound good.
Oh...and yes I am a bit biased here with a more 'liberal' retreat mechanism. Again, I started this thread for opinions. Some folks on my channel also wondered what was going on with units running up and down the front lines when blocked by friendly forces. It did seem a bit undesirable. I suppose gaps in the rear could be used for anticipated retreat lanes...something I will adapt going forward unless a change is made in the future

[BillRunacre]

Just tanks and mechanized units, which in vanilla would be 4 units, tho arguably Recon and the Cavalry units might also qualify.

I've checked the settings and Cavalry, Special Forces, Mechanized and Light Tanks (but not Heavy Tanks) already have a potential retreat range of 2 hexes.

Upping Tanks to have a range of 2 makes sense, and appears to be an oversight on my part as they are already set to that in the Pacific game.

[Elessar2]

You're welcome OCB. Thanks Bill.