Elmer crossing those rivers

[TercioNapoli]

Hi people

Hypothetically speaking.. 1944/45 Western Front, the allies crossed rivers at numerous points using engineering/baileys after the Germans had blown up the existing bridges.

If the player were to play as Germany against the allies - blowing up every bridge behind them in retreat, would Elmer have the driver and wits (if he has the right equipment) to cross rivers if his objectives are on the other side of the river?

I played Market Garden 44 and West Wall Holland 1944 as Germans, blowing up bridges, but the allies never crossed a river unless the bridge was intact/out of my reach. I'm not sure this was scripted or whether this is too far for Elmer to grasp - noting that in both scenarios the allies do have ferrying and bridge building equipment.

Any thoughts/experiences? (sorry if this has been asked in the past - I did go through past posts, but didn't see a specific question around this)

[sPzAbt653]

In Market Garden 44, most of the bridges are over non-major rivers, so blown bridges wouldn't prevent the Allies moving thru such hexes. You could check the end save file from your play of this scenario to check where the Allied units are. This could help trouble shoot why they may have movement bottlenecks.

For West Wall Holland 1944, the situation is different. Bridges in this one do cross major water obstacles which do present obstacles to Allied movement. There are only three major ferry capable engineer units in the OOB, and none of these will advance beyond the bridge at Grave. Again you can check the end file to see where these three units are to confirm that Elmer will not cross at Nijmegen or Arnhem. This is easy enough to change if you add some objectives to the formations of those three engineer units that will guide them over the major obstacles.

[rhinobones]

. . . add some objectives to the formations of those three engineer units that will guide them over the major obstacles.

I’ve tried giving Ferry Unit formations (the formation would be a single Ferry Unit) a major river hex as the highest numbered objective and had disappointing results. The Ferry Units tend to wander around the objective without settling on the major river hex and establishing a crossing or, crossing the river before other formations can make a crossing.

Maybe I’m using the wrong General Order. Attack and Defend don’t seem to work, maybe Independent would work better. How does a designer get them to park on a river hex? Do you have a suggestion?

Regards, RhinoBones

[sPzAbt653]

I’ve tried giving Ferry Unit formations (the formation would be a single Ferry Unit) a major river hex as the highest numbered objective and had disappointing results.

Are you talking about West Wall Holland 1944? Do you have a version of that one? All I have is the stock version.

[rhinobones]

I’ve tried giving Ferry Unit formations (the formation would be a single Ferry Unit) a major river hex as the highest numbered objective and had disappointing results.

Are you talking about West Wall Holland 1944? Do you have a version of that one? All I have is the stock version.

No, the scenario I had in mind is 1942 Velikiye Luki RBv01. In that scenario I’ve programmed the Soviet PO’s engineer/ferry units to have major river hexes as their highest objective. My expectation was that they would move to the river hex and park on the objective allowing the infantry regiments to cross and advance toward their higher numbered objectives.

The engineer/ferry units usually move toward the river but do not reliably establish crossing points. I’ve tried a couple of different deployments but the results have been disappointing. The revised scenario was designed to be played solo against a Soviet PO, so having the engineer/ferry units establish crossing points is critical.

I have a West Wall Holland 1944 and West Wall Holland 1944 (PBEM). Both are from 2006. Probably the stock scenarios.

Regards, RhinoBones

[sPzAbt653]

Ok, let's talk about this. The Programmed Opponent [Elmer] has some randomness built in. This keeps the game from being predictable. If you play a particular scenario often, you may notice that the same moves might not create the same countermoves from Elmer. This is mostly a good thing, but can be frustrating during scenario design.

For example, the situation pictured below is of the German side being played by Elmer in a scenario where German units are moving up to occupy the Siegfried Line [the Fortified terrain line]. All of the German units [gray] in this shot have moved from the right side of the map to their current positions. We can see the highlighted units' Objective Path in blue/aqua/green [whatever that color is], and this units' formation is supposed to stop at the hex immediately to its' northeast. But it hasn't, it has continued past its' objective by one hex and stopped there and dug in. Additionally, we can see the other units of this formation have continued even further to the southwest and dug in.

Looking at the rest of the map here, we can see several other units have moved past the Siegfried Line, some have stopped short, while others have actually followed orders and occupied the fortified hexes and dug in. So we can see this is all very random, and its by design, and as far as I am aware the designers can not avoid it.

I explain all of this because I think it gives a good base for understanding how designers deal with Elmer in many situations. He's not always going to do what he is told to do. Sometimes this is ok, but in cases like the ones mentioned in the previous posts above, designers may want to be more creative in order to obtain more scripted results. Maybe in order to get Elmer to stop on river crossings give him a PO activated Event that puts a Formation into Garrison Mode when the same Formation arrives at the river crossing when it becomes friendly owned. Or a Major Ferry unit with a Static Icon arriving on that hex. Or something else I can't immediately think of.

The overall result is that Elmer will sometimes appear to live up to his name.

[TercioNapoli]

Thanks guys for you detailed knowledge share, much appreciated. Blowing bridges slowed down the allies, but certainly didn't stop them. Thanks for providing some pointers in how to get Elmer getting across those rivers

[rhinobones]

Maybe in order to get Elmer to stop on river crossings give him a PO activated Event that puts a Formation into Garrison Mode when the same Formation arrives at the river crossing when it becomes friendly owned. Or a Major Ferry unit with a Static Icon arriving on that hex.

Have a bridge deploy when a major river hex is occupied . . . sounds like a workable solution. Appreciate the suggestion.

Best Regards, RhinoBones

[cathar1244]

Maybe in order to get Elmer to stop on river crossings give him a PO activated Event that puts a Formation into Garrison Mode when the same Formation arrives at the river crossing when it becomes friendly owned. Or a Major Ferry unit with a Static Icon arriving on that hex.

Have a bridge deploy when a major river hex is occupied . . . sounds like a workable solution. Appreciate the suggestion.

Best Regards, RhinoBones

But to occupy a major/super river hex, the unit would need some kind of equipment with ferry capability ?

Maybe the trigger for the deployment event should happen when a hex adjacent to the crossing is occupied. But what happens if the crossing point is an enemy controlled ( not occupied ) hex? I may be mistaken but this sounds like something that could get problematic in terms of a designer getting the desired play outcome.

Cheers

[rhinobones]

But to occupy a major/super river hex, the unit would need some kind of equipment with ferry capability ?

The existing engineer/ferry units are able to enter the river hex, the problem is that they will not stay there long enough for the infantry to cross. With your suggestion, once the river hex is turned a static ferry (acting as a permanent bridge) appears and enables the PO's river crossing. I might add some AA and AT to the bridge unit so that it isn't too easy to destroy.

Regards