[Opinion] Paratroops went limp after patch

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The Lobbyists who got the Paratroop restrictions through Congress, not feeling the change.
Axis only have 3 total, now it takes forever to conduct something juicy.
Does it really take 2+ months to pack a chute?

But meanwhile, the Russians can Operand units across 12 time zones.
Germans can Operand units from enemy Rails across Europe.
Yet, the Yanks cannot rail from New York to LA without the goofy stop, and they might get off the rail.

Maybe it's time to give Gerry more Paratroops, nobody does Operation Sealion.
Maybe it's time to give Gerry some boats for Sealion.
Considering the Clones are Masters of the Mediterranean since there's no threat.

Hey, here's an idea, maybe with Logistics Tech or Paratroops/LongRange The Eagle Can Land

[Vote] Lets give Gerry's Paratroops some Viagra.
We are German soldiers, and we will fight as such.

[Taifun]

I particularly like the change introduced in the last update. It was fiction that a unit of paratroopers could jump after being operated across the entire front for thousands of miles. The few airborne operations that took place in WWII had to be prepared for months as large quantities of transport aircraft and supplies had to be organized for them. Moreover, the real operations were jumps of a few hundred kilometers. In the game, the paratroopers are already sufficiently empowered with an excessively long range. I would limit their range to 6.
A change for the better without a doubt.

[Chernobyl]

Not as experienced as you two but I thought the change looked fine. It doesn't change the number of paratroopers, only how quickly they can be moved (most likely we are talking about strategic redeploy here) and dropped. Why is it so necessary to conduct the operation so quickly? I believe they can still prepare with 1 supply point left can't they? So they can still move forward and then prepare.

Germany CAN technically get 3 para units if they sell tech and purchase one right away. Italy could buy 1, and Japan gets 1.

There are many circumstances where the supply line of a whole enemy army group is very fragile and I believe paratroopers can wreck them. I forgot whether Berlin can be taken in 1 turn by a level 5 paratrooper?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

It's 2 German Paratroops.
Think Gliders.
Think Crete (real life).

The whole game, is gamey.
How about the 7 Marines launching on Rome move?
Then hop back onto ships and do it again.
Or just stay with Supply 10.

Without Food, fresh water, ammo.

Everyone dislikes the German Paratroops, the Allied are even worse.
Yankee Paratroops can go on a European world tour for 6-months.
Hang out in fortress West Wall with Supply 5.
Head down to the Gun & Knife store, pick up more bullets.

Allied Paratroops touring France with incredible defense for 6+ months is more unrealistic.

The Tripoli opening move by Allies is gamey too. Really, like the British are gonna move their HQ and Army to Tunisia in March 1940? Then clog the ports, and take Africa that quick. Yeah, right.

The Japanese are gonna sit in Los Angeles with entrenchment power and get mountain defense values?
That's a joke, it would be the other way around.
The very second Japs landed in California, you'd have 5,000,000 civilians with their hunting rifles.
The United States cannot even operand from East to West in one turn, without the stupid getting moved off the rail?
Yet the Russians can across 12 time zones?
German same thing, and in different countries.

[Umeu]

I think you are confusing unhistorical, and unrealistic with gamey.

Long range amphib marines or AA are unrealistic, but also gamey. There is nothing axis can do to stop it.

Triple Tripoli is unhistorical, perhaps it can be argued to be unrealistic, but it’s not gamey at all. It doesn’t use any broken game mechanics to pull off the strategy. It’s not something which can’t be stopped with out an unreasonable amount of effort or gamey moves on the side of the defender either. You just haven’t figured out the counter, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be countered.

Imo, unhistorical moves are completely fine. It just means it wasn’t done.

Unrealistic means it couldn’t have been done, or it was very unlikely to happen. Triple tripoli is the 2nd kind of unrealistic. I think that 2nd kind of unrealistic is fine. And the first kind is fine under the right circumstances.

Gamey moves imo simply refer to exploits of, very often, poor or bugged game design. But also imo of it can’t be countered (which indicates poor game design). LRATs are just bad for MP, and it’s a bit strange that after years of grousing about it, nothing has changed. But I guess you need to to rebalancd the entire game. And the title is too old. They learned their lesson in WitP, so thats something. A quick fix would be for amphibs long range to both take damage while attacking, as well as lose supply for attacking.

Using neutral navy to scout in the atlantic imo is gamey. It would be a declaration of war for italian warships to sail into the channel. Experience farming your carriers imo is not gamey. You can choose to do something about it usually. And even then, it’s not really that broken.

Paras don’t require to have been idle anyway, just can’t force march or operate them and then prep. I think that’s fine. It doesn’t realistically matter for sea lion anyway. Just plan your moves. It mostly matters for Russia getting overwhelmed by paras.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

There's a way for Italians to battle the Triple Tripoli, send down a HQ and a unit or two. Guess, one could say there's a counter to anything.

The move is part of the Attack of the Clones, handbook.

[Umeu]

There's a way for Italians to battle the Triple Tripoli, send down a HQ and a unit or two. Guess, one could say there's a counter to anything.

The move is part of the Attack of the Clones, handbook.

So then what is the problem lol. If going to tripoli is gamey, so is leaving the med with italian navy, no way mussolini would leave italian lands undefended while playing bus boy to german subs in the atlantic, but you always say thats fair game, since allies can block it etc. And I actually agree.

Now lrats don’t actually have a real counter. So I think that’s a legitimate gripe.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The real problem, I was dumb enough to take the Arizona Cardinals @ Seattle Seahawks to go Over. Didn't have a chance and was the last leg of my parlay. Didn't even get a chance to middle or buyout.

While I'm pondering tomorrow's stock market opening, and musing my next sports action, I don't have the energy to deal with you Clones. Guess it takes exact moves, weather, and dice. I will be heading the casino early tomorrow. Maybe the dice be with me. Maybe I'll play Don't Pass.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Intelligence and decoys also a part of WW-2.
Would be excellent to add fake units in, like the cardboard ones made for Patton fake 1944 distraction.

How about Rubert the Paradummy?

[Umeu]

Intelligence and decoys also a part of WW-2.
Would be excellent to add fake units in, like the cardboard ones made for Patton fake 1944 distraction.

How about Rubert the Paradummy?

He would no doubt make a more challenging opponent!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I particularly like the change introduced in the last update. It was fiction that a unit of paratroopers could jump after being operated across the entire front for thousands of miles. The few airborne operations that took place in WWII had to be prepared for months as large quantities of transport aircraft and supplies had to be organized for them. Moreover, the real operations were jumps of a few hundred kilometers. In the game, the paratroopers are already sufficiently empowered with an excessively long range. I would limit their range to 6.
A change for the better without a doubt.

Duedman and I advocated this Airborne change (as did others).
Thank us or blame us. It doesn't matter. As far as we were concerned, it was eXploity and unrealistic while we were doing it haha.

[Platoonist]

Duedman and I advocated this Airborne change (as did others).
Thank us or blame us. It doesn't matter. As far as we were concerned, it was eXploity and unrealistic while we were doing it haha.

Thank you. Perhaps the devs could bring the old paratrooper model back if they ever do a Starship Troopers game.

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[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The Paratroop changes suck.

On initial placement (born on date), you cannot even prepare the troops.
Next, you cannot toggle it back, like you used to.
This was originally a bug fix.

Out of all the things to do to the game, you remove functionality, great.

Turns are two weeks to month, and these guys cannot pack parachute and get in a glider?
Meanwhile, Air Units land in marshes, woods, mountains in enemy territory.
I'm the one back in SC-1, who said lets get some parachutes.

For all the donkeys who lost a game, due to paratroops, here's an idea.
Put units in the cities your want to keep.
One paratroop (even two) are not able to land, fight and take over your city.
I lose games all the time. It happens.
This is a game.

If you want to fix it, give all sides more free garrisons so cities cannot be taken empty.

Who's running these Paratroops, Colonel Sobel? Sobel is a loser. F- Sobel, put him in charge of cans of peaches. I will not go into combat with that man. Put a general in charge, like General McAuliffe of the 101st.

Patton and McAuliffe are badass.
They'll get the Army moving.
They're Paratroops, not a Boys Scout Troop.

NUTS

[OldCrowBalthazor]

@elvis.
We donkeys were keeping rear strategic areas covered, but not all places could be done in many cases.
So, we ask you this.
Do you think it's realistic to break a hole in the Soviet lines or find a gap, push a unit deep through the gap, then force march an Airborne unit in good supply the max distance into a low supply area, and then be able to prepare that Airborne unit to jump even deeper into enemy territory? And this made worse with long range upgrades.

Curious your thoughts. Ok to use diminutives like 'donkey' Thats fine also. Not all of us are 'soft' like like you seem to think.

Also, with the previous versions, Airborne units were used as suicide units deep in enemy territory, with no chance of assistance from advancing friendly troops.
That's not how division size Airborne units were used, ever. Not even the Soviets did that in the winter of 41/42 against AGC.
Certainly not the W.Allies. Not even an overrated narcissistic general like Patton would advocate a divisional/corp size suicide mission of airborne like was done over and over again in the previous versions.

When they dropped on Normandy and later Holland in 44, the US/UK Airborne units were dropped with the expectation of being linked up with the advancing columns.
With the old version, Airborne units were routinely used like small special ops paratroopers that did drop deep behind enemy lines to help assist resistance forces and organize sabotage ops.

Again the old version was unrealistic and gamey in our opinion.

bray away...........

[Chernobyl]

Next, you cannot toggle it back, like you used to.
This was originally a bug fix.

Okay well that isn't good.

Paras cant take out a garrison in a city
Just make more garrisons

Is that true that a garrison can survive a paratrooper attack? Probably not if the enemy has bombers.
Garrisons are kind of pro and con, they are extremely good at eating up your opponent's attacks for a low price. I forget what their buyback % cost is, but it should probably be increased to 100%.

I would note that these Paras are a corps-size unit. Operations of that scale require planning and assembling a huge number of planes.

But, thinking about it some more, I am not sure. It's not like Paras can jump around instantly. But delays do suck quite a bit and take away the advantage of using Paras in many cases. Can paratroopers prepare now if they are down to just 1 supply? That would mean they can still move and then prepare, or get on a boat, land, and then prepare. Or do they need full supply?

Elvis, you have the most entertaining way of writing. I appreciate it.

[Chernobyl]

For all the donkeys who lost a game, due to paratroops, here's an idea.
Put units in the cities your want to keep.

I think the larger issue is suiciding into NM Objectives and/or into event-triggering zones such as placing a unit within x hexes of Berlin. This is not a Paratrooper-only issue, but Paratroopers can be used to implement some of this nonsense.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

@OldCrowBalthazor --- To answer your question, can paratroops go that far? "Yes, the plane can". The C-47 was used for decades by the United States. 10,000+ were made. The range was 2000 miles. Used for Troop Transport, Paratroops, Supplies, name it. I don't care about Band of Brothers linking up or Bridge Too Far. This is a game. Fly the plane farther and shove them out the door.

Right now, these guys cannot go 3 hexes in 3 weeks. I've hitchhiked to get from Philly to Penn State in an afternoon ride.
I could ride a bike from Luxembourg to Paris (in my physical prime) in a day, if there was a straight road. Planes don't need roads.

Far as Patton, being a Narcissist, whatever. I don't need Doctor Phil, Witch Doctor or Shrink to get in the man's head.
Maybe he was a lousy softball player, and couldn't play double-deck Pinocle between operations. Patton was the best.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

*** Bump ***

Paratroops are nearly worthless now.
Cannot prep on initial placement.
Gotta save action points, so you're not moving far.
Any weather you won't be moving/prepping.
Plan on waiting forever to get these dudes ready.

Might as well toss them in the front lines to fight, decent enough against soft targets

[ThunderLizard11]

Yeah I noticed issues with paratroopers in last game and thought I just forgot how they worked. No opinion yet on this controversy but will pay attention during my next game.

On another topic - I would like to see a second marine and strat bomber for Germany - maybe after you research a higher tech level you can unlock a second unit?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

It's currently possible to have 2 Special Forces (SS) with Germany. Because I had them against U-Me-U and now El Condoro. The German 2nd Strategic Bomber, don't think so.

For sure, the Action Point requirement within the turn needs changed.

There needs to be at least a threat by the Germans to conduct Operation Sealion. All these Attack of the Clone players are conducting such perfect Allied MedFront ambushes. This is a game, need some options.