Bad Combat Performance of 'Specialized' Squads (SMG/StG44)

[Wiedrock]

I always found HMGs and SMG Squads performing (too) poor, that's what I was investigating these days. I found that the same as for the SMG Squads is true about the StG44 Squads. Now I'll exclude the HMGs from this Thread and only look at the StG and SMGs.
Not sure if it is in any way related to the attempted fix of:

Bug Fixes and AI Improvements
[...]
• Mech-Infantry class units were not properly accounting for the number of men in the unit when firing at soft targets and thus were hitting less often than they should. Fixed.

This seems to not have been fixed. Cavalry and Panzergrenadiers are still underperforming.
Tested in VtB in Editor.

But since it mentions "number of men in the unit" I thought it may be related in some way.

Two issues:

1. Device Range
   My idea was that the issue lies solely in the range and Device stats, and therefore the Squads with dedicated (lower ranged) arms only being able to fire at shorter ranges - and this is part of the issue, but seems to not be the only one. The weird thing (generally) is that they can't even catch up performance in CQC/Urban Combat or with Fortifications ...they are always outclassed by regular Squads.
2. Low Arms numbers perform better(?)
   The second issue, which I just now came across and which I feel is buggy/off.
   I found some weird numbers, e.g.
   - the 2 SMGs in a regular Squad scoring more hits than the 11 SMGs in a 11Men SMG Squad (in Urban Combat on the defence).
   - a single SA Rifle in a 9 Men Squad outclassing singlehandedly 11 StG in a 11Men Sturm Squad when attacking an unfortified Urban area.

...just to name two of the strangest observations which are not the norm, but show the tendency/general issue.

To me it appears as if (GUESSING HERE) the game - even when only having 1 Gun in a Squad, shoots as if there were 11 (or something like this), this causes the 2SMG in regular Rifle Squads to perform equally (or better) then the 11SMGs in an SMG Squad.
Not sure what I am missing, but something feels off (concerning the SMG Squads it always did - that's why I was investigating it).

Attached some example battle without Urban Combat, but as said it doesn't get better in Urban.

Weapon Issue SMG and StG.png (958.72 KiB) Viewed 543 times

[Wiedrock]

Splitting the Weapons changes it.

EDIT/NOTE: The following Posts used edited Squads (testing manpower efficiencey I made Squads 11Men, so different from the initial test).

[Wiedrock]

Named new Devices for the SPLIT Squad's Weapons, miraculously, the Device existing 5x performs worse.

[Wiedrock]

Filled all Slots with the new Devices, this way the Squad performs suddenly double as good as the other Squads (in attacks against Fort 0). Without actually changing any number of men/guns.
I am not an programmer but it seems to me that game only checks each device-slot for chances to shoot and completely ignores the Quantity.

[Wiedrock]

The system also fires/rolls to fire with Devices with "QTY 0". The SPLIT Squad is still the same as in the post above (and the highest QTY Device keeps performing worse).

[Joel Billings]

Do you have a save you can post that you are using to test these elements?

[Wiedrock]

Do you have a save you can post that you are using to test these elements?

I've created a new Scenario only using the regular Squads in game available, only copied some German Squads to Soviet side availability (tagged with "SOV" at the end).
Every Squad is 50x, took therefore not into account manpower efficiency, but it's about the "Device slots" anyways so not that much important I assumed. Testing setup is NE of Königsberg.

As said before I think the QTY of guns is not/wrong/weirdly being accounted for when it comes to Squad performance, while the filling of a "slot" with any device almost lineary increases FPE (when combat gets to ranges this Device can shoot).
I don't think it is a big issue, since it most likely has always been this way, but if/that it is supposed to be that way is something that has to be taken into account when setting up Squads (e.g. 11SMGs perform worse than 2SMG in another Squad with more device-slots filled). So a split of the weapons of Squads seems necessary (or a change in how the Code works). Making a "rule" to have every Regular/Foot Infantry Squad have at least 4 Slots filled may be a solution. Many have this already with Rifle+SA+SMG+LMG, but others that do not perform "~25%" worse with every missing Device slot - altough not having less men/guns overall or having worse guns.
Using the "split devices" could even be used to give Mot./Mech units an edge by adding an additional "Device slot" if one wants them to perform better.

[Wiedrock]

Making a "rule" to have every Regular/Foot Infantry Squad have at least 4 Slots filled may be a solution. Many have this already with Rifle+SA+SMG+LMG, but others that do not perform "~25%" worse with every missing Device slot - altough not having less men/guns overall or having worse guns.

The devices need to be filled with "man guns", things like Rifle Grenades, Panzerfaust or Hand Grenades do not have this performance-increasing effect since they are considered "squad weapons" it appears.

[Wiedrock]

He's not sure if the first slot has a special status of some kind in infantry units. That's the extent of what we know without a very deep dive (and even then getting into Gary's head in the code and deciding how/when to make a change almost impossible. The impact of breaking a weapon into multiple different slots is unknown to us. I doubt Gary ever thought about it, so best not to do it.

Okay, I'll reply here as mentioned in the other Thread.

I think it is (from my observations - I'll hereby exclude Urban Defense from all of my future statements! ) somewhat "clear" (I hope ).
Since I do not have prior GG titels, so I can't say if it always worked like that, but the Quantity of guns in a Device slot is not being accounted for "properly" (how I would imagine it to work). This leads to:
- Squads underperforming which only have 1 or 2 slots "filled" with longer ranged/normal weapons.
- 2xSMGs inside a Squad with 4-5 Weapon slots to perform similarly as good as 11xSMGs (in one slot) in an SMG Squad.
This can be as said easily changed by "splitting" the weapons on multiple slots.
This was already done on a Romanian Rifle Squad 39 and also at least 2 Tanks have the same MG more than once, so it's unlikely it's going to cause a breach in the Matrix.

[Joel Billings]

It's possible that the impact of the number of men in a man weapon unit does not linearly increase their effectiveness. I don't know that, but just trying to think of reasons why 5x2 would be better than 10. I can ask Pavel if he can quickly tell if the system to account for men using the same weapon is linear.