Maintaining Offensive Momentum

[ladner]

Slowly getting back into playing the game. Right now Road to Leningrad is probably about the scope of what I can manage. After reading HLYA AARs and DekeFentel's GT1 North and Center guide have had reasonable success/penetration of the initial defensive line and making good pockets by routing the units that rout. Regarding how to steer the units that rout, really need to read up on this, currently taking what the more experienced players provide as gospel.

Have found now that I am having hard time maintaining momentum, and suspect it is my ignorance of the supply system. It seems that there is some nuance with the FBD/rail repair units that I am either not up to date on, or has changed since I last played and definitely different than WITE1.

The other item is keeping air units on close to the front, at least the fighters and recon. I think I may have made a mistake moving some of the bomber squadrons forward.

[hadjimj]

Your main axis of advance for the road to leningrad should be the double rail line. Use your FBD to repair the line through Kaunas-Vilnius-Duagavpils-Pskov and beyond making sure you create depots in the hexes with railyards. Try to filp the rail hexes to your control a turn ahead of the FBD so they can use administrative movment to maxamise the distance they can repair a turn.

Maintain your units cpp (combat preparation points which increase cv) by filling your assault hq 4th Panzer group to capacity (but not over) and resting some units each turn (in territory you controlled at the start of the turn and not adjacent to enemy units).

To keep fighters close to the front line you can move them to a new airfield at the end of your ground movment and then air transport supplies after they have moved in. Yes the bombers are supply hungry but also have long range (tick the ring circles in the top right with air units selected to see range on the map) so avoid moving them to the edge of the repaired rail line.

Hopefully some of this rambling advice helps in someway

[ladner]

hadjimj, you have given some good advise and I had not given consideration to the need to airsupply to the newly set up airbases. Believe this was also recommended in an AAR that I read, only after reading your post. So hardly a 'rambling' post, not sure the same can be said of some of my own posts

[Wiedrock]

Maintain your units cpp (combat preparation points which increase cv) by filling your assault hq 4th Panzer group to capacity (but not over) and resting some units each turn (in territory you controlled at the start of the turn and not adjacent to enemy units).

+ not adjacent to red Hexes.
(I think the blue marked sentence has no relevance, unless someone hints what this is about...)

23.2.1. Gaining Combat Preparation Points
CPP are gained at the end of the friendly movement phase. All units will gain one CPP
for each 24 unused SMP. If units end the turn neither adjacent to the enemy [hexes] nor in a
hex that was not friendly controlled at the start of the turn then they will gain triple the
number of CPPs. Note that no unit can ever have more than 100 CPP.
If at all possible keeping units in friendly controlled hexes at the end
of the movement phase and out of contact with the enemy [hexes] will allow
units to build up and retain CPP more efficiently. Equally trying to
end a phase with at least some CPP is essential to regain lost CPP.
Units attached to a Soviet Front or Axis Army set to Assault Status (21.11.2) will gain
one CPP for each 12 unused SMP.
Errata - note that being adjacent to an enemy controlled hex (even if empty of
enemy units) will remove the bonus for rate of gain of CPP.

[MarkShot]

Your average combat readiness (forget what its called; cross swords) falls with time. Enemy units that have been assembling in the rear are getting dug in; ie. fort levels.

Also, you are heading into a funnel which begins with a wide mouth, but narrows towards Leningrad.

Initial terrain is clear, but the closer you get to to OZ the more it is thick forest and swamp.

The rains begin.

These dynamics account for what you are experiencing.

Vorwarts!

[ladner]

Appreciate all of the forum member responses. Still going through a slow learning curve. Have been paying more attention to cpp (cross swords).

[HardLuckYetAgain]

If you are out of CPP as Germans and Soviets are out of CPPs why rest to get CPPs? Keep on attacking as Germany you have the advantage:-)

[MarkShot]

When I find time, I need to go back and play some WITW and see just how much an impact CPP really has.

[Wiedrock]

When I find time, I need to go back and play some WITW and see just how much an impact CPP really has.

Isn't CPP a WITE2-only concept?

[MarkShot]

When I find time, I need to go back and play some WITW and see just how much an impact CPP really has.

Isn't CPP a WITE2-only concept?

Meaning with & without CPP. Sorry, if I was ambiguous ...

Enjoy it while you can ... the day of AI slop everywhere is coming. No one you met after 2022 is guaranteed to be a human.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

If you are out of CPP as Germans and Soviets are out of CPPs why rest to get CPPs? Keep on attacking as Germany you have the advantage:-)

If we are just talking about CPPs then the answer to this is that CPPs only multiply the offensive CV and not the defensive CV. So ignoring all other factors if you rest a turn and both sides gain CPP the Axis units will benefit on the attack whereas the Soviet units don't. Again just from a CPP perspective increasing CPP with a turns rest can start a bit of a feedback loop where higher CPPs give higher CVs which gives better battle odds which improves CPP(and CV) retention.

That said it is clear that the issue is much more complicated than just CPP. The CV gain an Axis unit gets through resting might be matched or at least mitigated by the opposing Soviet unit having an extra turn to take on replacements and to build fortifications. Plus the turns rest gives the Soviet unit the chance to send back to safety 25% of its damaged elements that would have been destroyed if you'd attacked and won on that turn.

[Wiedrock]

If we are just talking about CPPs then the answer to this is that CPPs only multiply the offensive CV and not the defensive CV. So ignoring all other factors if you rest a turn and both sides gain CPP the Axis units will benefit on the attack whereas the Soviet units don't. Again just from a CPP perspective increasing CPP with a turns rest can start a bit of a feedback loop where higher CPPs give higher CVs which gives better battle odds which improves CPP(and CV) retention.

A note on CPP (to everyone) from Editor tests I did some time ago (from memory).

CPP also affects combat performance for both sides for Ground Elements by about 25-45% (tested 0CPP vs 100CPP) more hits. As said, this applies to attacker and defender. I think it's not mentioned in the Manual at all, that it does what it does in this regard.
It's hard to say exact figures as you may guess, so don't quote me on them. But I'd guess 100CPP gives about 150% hits. I welcome someone figuring out the factual number (or prove me wrong).
For indirect fire (the Artilleries) the results are 100% clear. For other ground elements 99.99% (lots of variance in direct fire combat).

Regarding Fatigue (and its interaction with CPP and therefore MP) see this Post:

Hello,

The manual is great, but to my knowledge there's no single area that summarizes all the effects of fatigue on ground units (I'm excluding air units). So I'm posting a summary here. Please note any corrections or if I missed something. Some of these are redundant but I'm basically paraphrasing from manual.

The tl;dr is: fatigue has a negative impact on MP calculations, by reducing MP by average fatigue level of unit divided by ten (unless you pass a CPP test: die roll of 100 <= CPP), and also negatively impacts CV by 1/3 of fatigue level (as a %. So 100 fatigue = 33% CV reduction). There are other impacts but these two are the biggest.

1. Units take more fatigue moving into enemy hexes versus friendly controlled hexes (administrative movement).
2. Disrupted elements at end of a battle add extra fatigue.
3. CV is reduced by 1/3 of fatigue level
4. Rate of gain for fatigue is influenced by morale and supply level, as well as combat and terrain traversed
5. First winter rules (1 Dec to 31 Mar 42): ground elements can suffer increased fatigue in logistics phase if in blizzard hexes or hexes with snow level of 6 or more. Support elements less likely to take fatigue, infantry elements more likely.
6. Units which miss fatigue rolls can lose morale during logistic phase
7. Commanders impact fatigue rolls via their morale rating.
8. Fatigue negatively impacts unit construction values
9. Support squad elements impact the amount of fatigue added or removed from a unit during a turn (in logistics phase).
10. Support units can gain fatigue, as well.
11. Fatigue impacts MP. In MP calc, average fatigue level of each ground element in a unit is divided by ten. This resulting amount is then deducted from the MP calc. So 60 average fatigue would reduce MP by 6 (60/10). This fatigue MP reduction is canceled, however, if a unit passes a Combat Preparation Points die roll.
12. Isolated units that are low on supplies will suffer additional fatigue in logistics phase.
13. Fatigue impacts amount of retreat attrition taken (when a unit retreats or makes a displacement move).
14. General supplies are used to reduce fatigue in ground elements during logistics phase.

[Joel Billings]

My recollection is that Gary has always said that CPP would benefit defending artillery (due to having pre-ranged in possible targets). I thought (hope) this was mentioned somewhere in the rules. If you found that non-artillery units were also getting a benefit in combat, that would be news to me, but wouldn't completely surprise me.

The feedback loop between fatigue, CPP and MPs is definitely multi-dimensional. CPP's reduce fatigue. Spending your last MPs to move into a freshly taken hex not only uses up a lot of MP's, it causes additional fatigue based on the MPs spent (and burns CPPs). If you don't make the move, not only do you not take extra fatigue, but you save MPs which convert into CPPs (at a better rate being not in a newly taken hex). Those CPPs reduce fatigue at the start of the next turn. Those few MPs saved, fatigue not taken, CPPs gained (and not lost from the movement), and fatigue reduction from the CPP can lead to a significantly less fatigued unit. That lower fatigue than has multiple impacts on the unit. Yes, you'll have to move an extra hex on the next turn, but you'll spend less MPs to do it, and the unit will be in much better shape (and it might have more MPs to make the move).

[MechFO]

My recollection is that Gary has always said that CPP would benefit defending artillery (due to having pre-ranged in possible targets). I thought (hope) this was mentioned somewhere in the rules. If you found that non-artillery units were also getting a benefit in combat, that would be news to me, but wouldn't completely surprise me.

"Combat Preparation Points (CPP) (23.2) are one way the game reflects the importance of building up before launching an offensive. Units can have between 0-100% CPP depending on how well rested they are. The immediate effect is that CPP increases the CV of attacking units (in other words well rested units are more effective on the offensive) but it also improves the ability of defending units to draw on supporting artillery."

It's in the living manual.

The feedback loop between fatigue, CPP and MPs is definitely multi-dimensional. CPP's reduce fatigue. Spending your last MPs to move into a freshly taken hex not only uses up a lot of MP's, it causes additional fatigue based on the MPs spent (and burns CPPs). If you don't make the move, not only do you not take extra fatigue, but you save MPs which convert into CPPs (at a better rate being not in a newly taken hex). Those CPPs reduce fatigue at the start of the next turn. Those few MPs saved, fatigue not taken, CPPs gained (and not lost from the movement), and fatigue reduction from the CPP can lead to a significantly less fatigued unit. That lower fatigue than has multiple impacts on the unit. Yes, you'll have to move an extra hex on the next turn, but you'll spend less MPs to do it, and the unit will be in much better shape (and it might have more MPs to make the move).

Which is why the pseudo Russian Cavalry Divisions (should be Brigades) have such an outsized importance.

[Wiedrock]

[...] but it also improves the ability of defending units to draw on supporting artillery."

It's in the living manual.

It means "getting Artillery SUs comitted into combat" is how I read this.
That's why you can get like (at least) 8 Artillery SUs into your defensive Combat, since there are some special rules on that.

My recollection is that Gary has always said that CPP would benefit defending artillery (due to having pre-ranged in possible targets). I thought (hope) this was mentioned somewhere in the rules. If you found that non-artillery units were also getting a benefit in combat, that would be news to me, but wouldn't completely surprise me.

I dug out my old test, people can judge themselves. Back then I did lots more runs, here the first three in a row on the Ground Elements (direct firing).

There is this weird erratic'ness, but that's the normal one between two battles I'd say. But the trend is obvious as that 100CPP Elements perform on average better than 0CPP Elements. I looked at HPS mostly, since for indirect fire it boosts only those and not the FPE, so I stick to that (and it's the one metric that matters).
In what amount,... I gave the 25-45% as to not raise the expectations too much and averaging it conservatively with keeping in mind that you rarely have 100CPP in an attack due to movement (at least for CUs).
For indirect Artillery the %-improvement is way more "stable" than for those Ground Elements, there I have seen mostly ~+50-80%, but possible it depends/"interacts" with other factors such es Fort Level/EXP or so to give varying percentages.
Occasionally (....maybe in 1 of 4) you will have the CPP about Equal (like Test 3 below) to the 0CPP Elements. This "chance to perform equal" may vary between different Ground types in some way and seems way less likely for Artillery which as said seems more "stable".

The SU with the "CPP" has 100CPP.
The Units with "CPP" are in this 100CPP SU.

The other Heavy Panzerjaeger-SU contains the "000CPP" Elements+the vanilla-named Pak43 and has 0CPP.

[MarkShot]

Joel,

It is very obvious even during casual play when for reasons you have moved all SUs to OKH (including manually pioneers) that CPP plays a big role on al CUs and not just arty.

---

BTW, I am off to play some WITW today.

If you have the units, I think one of the best ways to use CPP is to alternate attack lines. Thus, keeping CPP and momentum. Of course, numbers are the problem.

[MarkShot]

How did the game feel before CPP? Today, we go back into the history of gaming.

20251006 114829.jpg (1.56 MiB) Viewed 46 times

[Joel Billings]

I wasn't arguing that CPPs don't impact non artillery units, what I was saying was that as for direct impacts on fire combat, Gary had always told me that CPPs just helped defending artillery type ground elements in firing (and he may have been talking about just the long range artillery bombardment phase part of combat, I don't remember the specifics). However, Gary is known to build all kinds of things into the formulas, some of which never get documented. So it's very possible at some point he built in an impact of CPPs on direct fire for both attacker and defender. If he did, I would have guessed it would have been built into the chance to fire for a block of ground elements, not the chance to hit. I'll ask Pavel and Gary if either can confirm or deny the direct impact on fire combat, but whatever it is, it's not changing. Gary probably won't remember and won't want to go through the many pages of combat code to try to figure out if he built it in. Pavel might be able to do a search and rule something in or out. Wiedrock has a good track record of figuring out what's going on, so I'd tend to believe his analysis on this unless we get additional information from the programmers. In any case, the fundamentals of the importance of CPPs/fatigue/MPs remain a critical element to understand and master.

[MarkShot]

Thanks, Joel.

I didn't get to play WITW. I ran into absolutely one of the most bizarre bugs I have seen.

Certain keystrokes are just not being processed consistently. I think this arose after replacing my old PC 2 years ago. I did try all my games, but only launched WITW. It could be something else like a redistribuable. Well, as it only impacts displays, I suppose I can tap keys multiple times. Time to play some WITW.

[MarkShot]

OMG! Sometimes, reinstalling something really does fix problems. WITW must be using DirectX8 or something, and reinstalling fixed my keyboard. AMAZING.