RED dice

[humunuku]

Please help solve my mystery: I encountered two combats today involving a RED die (instead of the ordinary white one). I have looked thoroughly through the on-disk manual, but found no explanation; I only scanned the tutorials, but also came up empty.

The red die appeared as soon as I clicked to set up an attack, and stayed red after the combat result was posted.

Could the red die have something to do with signifying the defending unit as "out of supply?" One attack was versus a totally surrounded German armored unit (2 steps left), at the tip of the German thrust; the other was an overrun versus an adjacent, hapless engineer, but it was at least still adjacent to many other German units.

I am really impressed with how difficult it is to surround the aggressive Germans in Wiking Whiteout: They stubbornly kept 2 entire SS armor divisions advancing against the Russian northern objective city, despite my 2-3 turn effort to "cut them off" from their supply line over the river. Although I cut thru their line and reached the river, my Russkies found themselves temporarily out of supply, due to having only a 1-2 hex width. This partially explains how I had the earlier red dice attacks versus "surrounded" units, but not truely "isolated" (thus the Germans were still highlit as being in an "all red" supply area).

Lots of fun learning how this all works! (Thanks again to Chris Merchant: Great learning scenario!)

Yah, the "battle of the surrounds" goes on...bring on my punishment.

Bob Cohen

[Fred98]

Could the red die have something to do with signifying the defending unit as "out of supply?"

Yes thats my understanding.

You can test this by setting up a small game and play against yourself - and recreate this situation

[Crimguy]

Yes thats my understanding.

You can test this by setting up a small game and play against yourself - and recreate this situation

I've been seeing them too. What was confusing is that when I right clicked on an enemy's hex, and then highlighted the enemy counter, it appeared that the enemy still had "bullets". I thought they wouldn't b/c they didn't have ammo . . . not to mention I've had them surrounded for 3-5 turns.

[von Schmidt]

I've been seeing them too. What was confusing is that when I right clicked on an enemy's hex, and then highlighted the enemy counter, it appeared that the enemy still had "bullets". I thought they wouldn't b/c they didn't have ammo . . . not to mention I've had them surrounded for 3-5 turns.

Yeah. I've seen my own units with bullets remaining go in the red as well (after digging in or a combat etc).
Those units did have the grey 'spot' on their icon.

Enemy units with bullets left can go in the red while not being completely surrounded so that is not it.

Anyone else know what might be going on?


von Schmidt

[humunuku]

I've been seeing them too. What was confusing is that when I right clicked on an enemy's hex, and then highlighted the enemy counter, it appeared that the enemy still had "bullets". I thought they wouldn't b/c they didn't have ammo . . . not to mention I've had them surrounded for 3-5 turns.

Just to help others picture my Wiking Whiteout game situation, the name of the objective town is Tschokmak (i.e., where the stubborn Germans have been heading). The German supply line is cut at the bridge @ hexes 19,9; Russians cut the Germans off along the road between 19,9 to 16,8.

I just checked my saved turn and verified conflicting info about the "surrounded" units:" When right-clicked, the defending German armor icon is highlit by a red background, all of its shock and anti-tank values also were in red (but it still had 4 bullets), thus implying it is out of supply. On the other hand, the entire German pocket of about 8 units is shown as being "in red" (supplied), with a continuous line back to the rest of the German forces. (The "in red" supply line does also have a continous line of 2-3 Russians astride it, but THEIR supply is also threated by a German unit adjacent to their main supply road. Despite my Russians being "in the red" supply zone of the Germans, the Russian units do still have full offense/defensive capabilities...and bullets.)

I have offered the above detail only in hope that someone more knowledgeable about KP can properly understand my situation...and explain what is happening: Why aren't all of the defenders out of supply? Why do my other possible attacks on other units "in the pocket" not display a red die? What is the true significance of the red/green supply highlighting on the respective supply situations (i.e., the German attackers are really encircled, but part of the Russian line is, in turn, also surrounded by other Germans)?

What effect does the red die signify on the proposed attack (i.e., what disadvantage will be placed on the defender)?

Thanks in advance to everyone who can wade through the above account...and answer my questions.

Bob Cohen

[Gregor_SSG]

I've been seeing them too. What was confusing is that when I right clicked on an enemy's hex, and then highlighted the enemy counter, it appeared that the enemy still had "bullets". I thought they wouldn't b/c they didn't have ammo . . . not to mention I've had them surrounded for 3-5 turns.

When you look at units in the popup, whether they're friendly or enemy, you only see the maximum number of bullets they have.

We decided that we wouldn't let you see the supply state of enemy units because it is information that you wouldn't really get, and because it would lead to a lot of artificial attacks.

If you do an attack and you see the red dice, that means that all defending units in the hex are 'Isolated' and subject to extra penalties in combat. Page 34 of the manual, Chapter 7.5.4 has the details.

Remember, you only get the red dice and the penalties if all defenders are isolated, so you can often save your own stacks from this dreadful fate by sending in a supplied unit.

Gregor

[Rob Gjessing]

When you look at units in the popup, whether they're friendly or enemy, you only see the maximum number of bullets they have.

We decided that we wouldn't let you see the supply state of enemy units because it is information that you wouldn't really get, and because it would lead to a lot of artificial attacks.
Gregor

There are two ways that you can 'examine a unit'. You can right click on a unit and examine the unit pop up. You can do this for your own units and for enemy units.

The other way to examine a unit is to left click on them to select them (and all units in the stack/hex) and examine them in the righgt hand 'stack panel' [my term] (where you assign replacements etc). You can only select your own units using this method.

So what Gregor is saying, when you right click on a unit - it will show what the max number of bullets is that that unit can have. It doesnt show you the current state of the bullets - as Gregor points out.. this is because this method of selecting a unit is not exclusive to your own.. and you shouldnt be able to see how many bullets the enemy has left. I dont think the intel was good enough on the battlefield to be able to tell how many rounds or cans of gas the enemy had left

So the correct way to see how many bullets one of your units has left is to left click on it and select it in the right hand 'stack panel'.

Whoosh!

[humunuku]

Thanks to Gregor and Rob for confirming that the RED dice signify a defending unit which is isolated, as I guessed might be the case.

However, this explanation does not totally solve my question. Following the previously described situation on Turn 7 (of Wiking Whiteout), I now find in Turn 8: Four German SS armor on one hex (= 17,9; all are still in the same kind of "surrounded" situation, but ONLY ONE of the four is shown with a red background and thus "isolated;" why are the other three units not shown as isolated? NOTE: None of these units have attacked or been attacked during the past 4 turns or so (and thus, all show the identical 4 bullets of supply).

Thanks again for allowing me to "beat this old horse" until it is finally dead. At this point, I am simply curious as to whether this might be a glitch in the program, or if there is a truly logical explanation for different conditions which might cause "isolation").

Bob Cohen

[Gregor_SSG]

However, this explanation does not totally solve my question. Following the previously described situation on Turn 7 (of Wiking Whiteout), I now find in Turn 8: Four German SS armor on one hex (= 17,9; all are still in the same kind of "surrounded" situation, but ONLY ONE of the four is shown with a red background and thus "isolated;" why are the other three units not shown as isolated? NOTE: None of these units have attacked or been attacked during the past 4 turns or so (and thus, all show the identical 4 bullets of supply).

Bob Cohen

Remember, you can't tell how many actual bullets enemy units have. So you've got the SS units surrounded, but 3 out 4 of them still have bullets left. You know that they have a maximum of 4 bullets from the unit popup. If you keep attacking them, they will eventually run out of bullets, and then become isolated, you just don't know how long this will take.

If you don't attack them, and they don't attack you, then their supply state won't change (assuming they stay surrounded).

Gregor