Ground Weather & Roads - impact on Attacker CV

[Wiedrock]

8.5. IMPACT OF WEATHER ON GROUND OPERATIONS
Ground operations are only affected by the ground weather in a particular hex.
There are six Ground Conditions; clear, light mud, heavy mud, light snow, snow and
heavy snow.
Ground conditions are determined by the current air weather condition and the
cumulative amount of moisture (water level) in the hex. For example, consecutive
periods of heavy rain will turn clear ground condition to light mud and then heavy mud.
Cold, snowfall, and blizzard air weather conditions, will freeze the moisture and result
in varying amounts of snow. The current weather condition and moisture levels in any
hex can be seen by right clicking on a hex.
8.5.1. Impact of the Road System
Each hex is rated for the quality of its road system as: Good; Average; or, Poor. The
quality of the road system helps to offset the impact of poor ground conditions on
movement and combat. Basically the better the road system, the less impact weather
has on movement and ground combat
8.5.2. Impact of Weather on Movement and Combat
The ground condition in a hex, when combined with the type of road system present,
determines both whether there is an additional tactical ground movement cost (38.6),
which can also affect supply, and whether the combat value (CV) of attacking units
are modified (23.8.4).
When attacking, any modifications are based on the ground weather conditions in the
hex occupied by the attacking unit at the time of combat. This is also true for attacker
reserve units that are committed to the battle (CV weather effect is based on the hex
they are physically in on the map) and support units that are directly attached to a
combat unit.
Attacker support units in HQs are affected by the ground weather in the target hex.

23.8.3. Combat Value (CV) modification for Ground Combat
Unit Combat Values (CV) are subject to the modifiers detailed below.

[...]

Weather CV Modifier. Attacking CV values are reduced by the ground weather in
their hexes (8.5). The exact modifiers are based on the specific ground weather and
road system in the attacking unit’s hex and the hex pop up CV combat predictor will
reflect these modifiers.
The following table shows the weather CV modifiers:

Weather_Modifiers_including Ski.jpg (64.7 KiB) Viewed 273 times

Play note, it is possible that attacking units in different hexes may be
affected by different weather modifiers.


23.8.4. Impact of Poor Weather on the Combat Value
The worse the weather, the more likely it is that some combat elements will not be
available during the actual combat. This is particularly likely in blizzard and heavy rain
turns.
In effect, if attacking under these conditions it is worthwhile to try to have higher
notional odds before committing your forces as a number of elements will not be
available during the actual battle.

Since the manual isn't clear and there being some confusion/missconceptions.

A while ago I while testing other stuff that the Road Netowork in a Hex did not have any impact on Attacking SU's CV, so I figured that the National Road System was the factor to look at instead.
CUs were not clear back then, so here a simple example showing that the same applies to CUs.

As you can see, the Attacking CV of the Unit is not impacted by the Roads inside the Hex.
What it is affected by is the Road System of the Nation the Hex belongs to (I think this can only be looked at in the Editor - some countries attached).

Weather-Road-CV changes.jpg (333.29 KiB) Viewed 323 times

IF the initial CV would be "Light Mud + Average Road = 0.8 Modifier", then the Heavy Mud + Good Road example should be:
7.3/0.8x0.5=4.56CV
...and the Heavy Mud + Poor Road example should be:
7.3/0.8x0.125=1.14CV
...which as can be seen is not the case.

What's happening instead is every Hex being a National "Good Road System". Which gives us:
7.3/0.9=8.11CV as a base.
Which leads to:
Heavy Mud + Good (National) Roads being 8.11CVx0.5=4.05CV
...in both cases!!!
This 4.05CV obv. gets reduced slightly by the Fatigue/spent MP/lost CPP.

So all in all, the manal is unclear on what a "Road System" is and which (Hex or National) applies in what case, it puts the Weather/Road-Impact on CV and MP together but both are using different "Road Systems" it appears.

Whether there is more to this, like using Different Road Systems (Hex/National) in different cases like RESERVE, SUs in HQs ...and so on, and if there are more issues needs further investigation.

[Denniss]

smells a bit like a bug, in my opinion the road system of both the attacked hex and the hex one attacks from should be affecting the initial cv

[Wiedrock]

smells a bit like a bug,[...]

Not sure if a bug, but overall something that needs clarification in the manual. I certainly moved units for attacks into average road hexes several times in hope for better attacking CV in bad weather if I had the chance.

---

Added some more quotes from the Manual to the initial Post.

Created a chart to see what applies when and to see in how far there may be differences between initialCV and finalCV (as seems to be the case for other modifiers ...eventually).
Now it just needs to be filled to get some clarity.

[Wiedrock]

As you can see, the Attacking CV of the Unit is not impacted by the Roads inside the Hex.
What it is affected by is the Road System of the Nation the Hex belongs to (I think this can only be looked at in the Editor - some countries attached).

Editor overview (I set all Hexes to the national road system).

[Wiedrock]

To show that it also applies to attacks/initialCV, here an example of an PzDiv attacking from two differently roaded hexes in heavy mud.
If it would use the actual roads visible with both being Heavy Mud Hexes, this would mean that the average road should have double the attacking CV than the poor road (which in itself would make sense since better roads are less affected by mud/rain).
But instead of x0.25 modifier for the average and x0.125 for the poor road hex (that's where the 2x higher expected CV comes from), we get x0.5 for both (as if standing in a good road hex).

So we go from Light Mud + "National Good Road" x0.9 to Heavy Mud + "National Good Road" x0.5 which gives the:
34.46CV / 0.9 x 0.5 = 19.7CV (further reduced by lost CPP, gained Fatigue and lost Fuel and so on).

[Joel Billings]

Are you saying that the road quality in a hex for combat is determined by the nationality of the unit and the quality of the roads for that nationality? Can you provide a save before an attack when I can see this?

[Wiedrock]

The Unit Counter's nationality should not make a difference, just the nationality of the Hex.
Save comes tomorrow.

[Wiedrock]

Save comes tomorrow.

This is a Scenario with all Heavy Mud.
+ Testing Units can be found in/near 172,163.
+ Near Odessa is Soviet territory with different Roads.

GC41 NEE - Weather.rar

(1.82 MiB) Downloaded 4 times

Following the save of the PzDiv I have posted above.

T18 pre weather tester.rar

(2.05 MiB) Downloaded 6 times

[Joel Billings]

Clearly at least a display bug. Do you think it carries through into the final combat CV values? Have sent it to Pavel with a high priority to fix this.

[Wiedrock]

I think the initialCV and the finalCV are fine (using the same "base") in weather affected attacks as in this Thread.

....sidenote...an observation I made in several tests/settings is, that RESEVERVE attached SUs (only the SUs) both in attack and defence turn out to have way less initialCV than other SUs/CUs with same TOEs, this occurs once weather or Density come into play, not sure if this may cause some finalCV jumps in this cases. Not sure what this low initialCV of those Reserve attached SUs is caused by yet.
...so there may be some issues with "RESERVE attached SUs" but not tested yet.