PB in Palamos not refuling

[Tom_]

Possible bug in the Tutorial scenario.

I put the two PB boats located in Palamos into a TF (28).
Assigned them a patrol mission (just outside the port) - which they dutifully conducted.
Once the patrol mission was over they returned to port.

However, they have 'Full refuel' selected and do not conduct a refuel. I played through 3 turns to check there wasn't a delay.

Attached is a picture.
This is repeatable on tutorial scenario from turn 1 onwards so east to replicate.

Hope this helps

p.s. absolutely loving the game!!!! cant wait for the pesky bugs to be ironed out but so far so good!

[potski]

Yes, this is confirmed. Any patrol boats from Palamos, Barcelona or Mahon all will cancel their Patrol Around Target instructions and not actually leave the port. This happens on the first day. It is not related to refueling or re-arming, it happens at the military and civilian ports.

I have a theory this is related to the feature Port auto defense is on, which is the default shown on the Active Ships at the ports window.

The manual makes no mention of this feature anywhere that I can find. So it's possible the TFs with the PT Boat mission would leave the port if the port is threatened, but I have been unable to replicate that. However, it could just be a bug in the mission/ship type, other missions like Surface Combat, Sub Patrol have no problems. However, the Patrol Boats don't leave the port even with a Surface Combat mission.

[RangerJoe]

Ah yes, the active defense. When the MTBs decide to sojourn from the port without the player giving them orders . . .

[potski]

Ah yes, the active defense. When the MTBs decide to sojourn from the port without the player giving them orders . . .

So you just leave them in the port without any patrol route and the AI does the rest when the auto-defense is enabled?

[RangerJoe]

Ah yes, the active defense. When the MTBs decide to sojourn from the port without the player giving them orders . . .

So you just leave them in the port without any patrol route and the AI does the rest when the auto-defense is enabled?

Yes, at least the MTBs will do so.

[Alessandro S.]

I think the issue of aborting patrol is that the missions require ammo.
PT is am motor torpedo boat mission.
Surface combat is a mission looking at gun power

These ships do only have AA guns and are not suitable for either torpedo or surface combat. They will break off mission from lack of ammo in the TF.

Looks like these boats are only suitable to escort ships in cargo missions.
The operations report should hold a text line telling the TF did cancel their mission from lack of ammo if they did.

For refueling this is done when entering a hex. ( returning to a port ) but I did not think of TF patrolling inside a port hex.
I added auto refuel for when TF stay in the port hex for patch 3 onward.

[potski]

I think the issue of aborting patrol is that the missions require ammo.
PT is am motor torpedo boat mission.
Surface combat is a mission looking at gun power

These ships do only have AA guns and are not suitable for either torpedo or surface combat. They will break off mission from lack of ammo in the TF.

Looks like these boats are only suitable to escort ships in cargo missions.
The operations report should hold a text line telling the TF did cancel their mission from lack of ammo if they did.

For refueling this is done when entering a hex. ( returning to a port ) but I did not think of TF patrolling inside a port hex.
I added auto refuel for when TF stay in the port hex for patch 3 onward.

If you go to Palamos as an example in the Tutorial scenario, because it has few ships. Send any cargo ships to Barcelona. With just two PB type ships at anchorage (C.16 and C.17). In the ship details their devices are listed as just one 7.0mm AAMG each. This is said to face A, which I think means they "face" all directions, and presumably can be pointed down at the surface and used to fire on targets on the surface?

They are both described as "Patrolboat" and if we go to create a Task Force at Palamos we are given six options for the missions that are available from there, in other words, the missions that the game thinks just those two ships alone could fulfill:
Surface Combat
Bombardment
Amphibious
ASW Combat
PT Boat
Escort

Amphibious on their own makes little sense, when neither have any troop/cargo capacity, but I suspect it thinks PB's are suitable for escorting Amphibious TFs. So it doesn't block them having that mission.

Bombardment and ASW also makes little sense if their AAMG cannot be used to fire on land targets and subs. But again the game might thinking in terms of using these ships as support/cover for other warships to protect them from from attack by air.

They are, of course, fully loaded with ammo at the start of the game. And they will never encounter enemy planes in this scenario to use that ammo, unless you send them to Mallorca later in the month. Ammo does not appear to the issue.

The issue, I thought, is whether you can give "Patrolboats" the PT Boat mission if they are only armed with AAMG's. Either there is a bug in the mission, or there is some hidden mechanism we don't see anywhere in the manual, or these are mis-labelled in the scenario files as "Patrolboats".

To note the AI control of the TF's that is mentioned is nowhere directly covered in the Manual. There is no mention anywhere what the Port Auto Defense option On/Off does in the port anchorage window. But we do see in 19.14:

Upon detecting an enemy Task Force, a Base nearby may automatically launch small craft like PT-Boats, HDML or motor torpedo boats and midget submarines for self-defense.

But how that works is not explained, even to say that you need to have the Port Auto Defense On. So my suspicion was that you have the Patrol Boats with a PT Boat mission in the port and do not set it to go anywhere. They are NOT set to patrol the port hex only. That is not what we are saying, they are set with no patrol route. But I have not actually seen that result in the TF being launched against an enemy TF.

Despite being small ships they appear to have no fuel at Palamos and don't get any more from Palamos (civilian). They have a zero cruise speed and endurance at the start of the scenario. But moving them to Barcelona they get their max fuel and they have a cruise speed and endurance. But still they won't leave the port to carry out a PT Boat mission to patrol in the Balearic Sea. But they also will not carry out a Surface Combat mission either, and every turn cancel any patrol route you give them. So the issue seems wider than just whether the PT Boat mission has this special AI mode not covered in the Manual. They definitely have all their ammo and fuel.

However, assigned to a TF of ALKs with a Cargo mission, they are happy to escort the AKLs, and leave Barcelona.

[potski]

OK,

PT is am motor torpedo boat mission.

I missed the word "torpedo" in that first time round. But saw this in the Manual:

6.10 Naval Ammunition and Retreat
If a TF is judged to be “Low on Ammo”, it will have its Patrol/Retreat status automatically set to Retirement Allowed and it will return to its home port. A TF is considered to be “Low on Ammo” when the TF is a Surface Combat or Bombardment TF, and the TF has less than 30% of Naval and DP gun ammunition. PT Boat or Sub Patrol consider torpedoes for this check.

So the issue, to my mind, is that these particular "Patrolboat" types should not allow a PT Boat mission to be assigned to them and/or the PT Boat mission should be better described in the Create New TF window, say as "Torpedo Boat Patrol" or "MTB Patrol".

Yet, weirdly, the two Torpedo Boats at Mahon (T-14 and T-17) show this mission as red when you want to assign it to them. However, they do leave port and patrol around Menorca, when I had previously used Surface Combat for them.

So at bottom, I now think, this is not a bug in the code. But a mis-understanding of what the different types of ships do and how you are supposed to use them. And the particular "Patrolboats" we have at Palamos, Barcelona etc with no torpedoes will never carry out the "PT Boat" mission. "PT" in "PT Boat" is not patrolboat

The manual says:

PT boats, MGBs, SSX’s and barges act in all ways like all other ships with one exception, Rearming. They can rearm in the same way as all other ships, but if the port’s Dock Size is equal to or more than 10 times the tonnage of the ship, it can rearm all weapons. So, you do not need a giant size 7 port to re-arm a 30-ton motor torpedo boat. These small craft can arm and operate from small ports.

So it is referring only to the torpedo boats and re-arming torpedoes explicitly. But seems to imply that all small "warships" would operate this way.

While the "Patrolboats" don't need to be re-armed with ammo for their AAMG at the start, Palamos a civilian port, and is not reloading them with fuel. The C.16 and C.17 are 27 tons, and 10 times that is far less than the dock size at level 2 Palamos.

[RangerJoe]

OK,

PT is am motor torpedo boat mission.

I missed the word "torpedo" in that first time round. But saw this in the Manual:

6.10 Naval Ammunition and Retreat
If a TF is judged to be “Low on Ammo”, it will have its Patrol/Retreat status automatically set to Retirement Allowed and it will return to its home port. A TF is considered to be “Low on Ammo” when the TF is a Surface Combat or Bombardment TF, and the TF has less than 30% of Naval and DP gun ammunition. PT Boat or Sub Patrol consider torpedoes for this check.

So the issue, to my mind, is that these particular "Patrolboat" types should not allow a PT Boat mission to be assigned to them and/or the PT Boat mission should be better described in the Create New TF window, say as "Torpedo Boat Patrol" or "MTB Patrol".

Yet, weirdly, the two Torpedo Boats at Mahon (T-14 and T-17) show this mission as red when you want to assign it to them. However, they do leave port and patrol around Menorca, when I had previously used Surface Combat for them.

So at bottom, I now think, this is not a bug in the code. But a mis-understanding of what the different types of ships do and how you are supposed to use them. And the particular "Patrolboats" we have at Palamos, Barcelona etc with no torpedoes will never carry out the "PT Boat" mission. "PT" in "PT Boat" is not patrolboat

The manual says:

PT boats, MGBs, SSX’s and barges act in all ways like all other ships with one exception, Rearming. They can rearm in the same way as all other ships, but if the port’s Dock Size is equal to or more than 10 times the tonnage of the ship, it can rearm all weapons. So, you do not need a giant size 7 port to re-arm a 30-ton motor torpedo boat. These small craft can arm and operate from small ports.

So it is referring only to the torpedo boats and re-arming torpedoes explicitly. But seems to imply that all small "warships" would operate this way.

While the "Patrolboats" don't need to be re-armed with ammo for their AAMG at the start, Palamos a civilian port, and is not reloading them with fuel. The C.16 and C.17 are 27 tons, and 10 times that is far less than the dock size at level 2 Palamos.

You can put any type of ship into any type of task force.

[Alessandro S.]

The refueling issue has several contributors.

The ships are patrol boats, but lack the torpedo or gun ammo to conduct combat missions on their own.
They can be part of such TF types per ship class definition, which makes the TF type possible, but since they only have AA guns they are limited to a support role in these TF.
Being sent to patrol on their own will terminate the patrol zone and have them RTB from lack of ammo to conduct the requested patrol.

2nd
Upon RTB they could not disband as per TF orders, they stay in hex cruising around as the port size is too small for to go at anchor in a safe way ( no protection vs seaside threats )
The keep using fuel.

3rd
I completely missed this could happen and TF did only check for refueling when entering a hex with a port, but this TF kept cruising inside the hex.
Patch version 53 will include a check for TF to refuel if low on fuel, even if cruising in the same hex.
That should make your PB type ships refuel every few hours.