PT Boats

[Yakkface]

Long time player (since back when it was just WITP - though had a break of some years of recent - hence the new account)

So we are seeing an interesting dynamic in my current game. I am playing the Allies, it is early Feb 42. frontline has progressed to the Straits of Makassar (I still own Samarinda and Balikpapin and Makassar - opponent has Tarakan and Donggala.

I have all the available PT boats in groups of 5 to 8 at each port and currently the turn in this area have gone.....

IJN invasion TF with covering surface force approach a base.
PT boats engage surface fleet - both TF's see each other at around 11KM (moonlight is pretty high 70%+)-
PT's fire all their torps (and miss - which is fine) - surface fleet fires off everything it has got - range does not reduce much I assume because PT boats are fast and have no more torps.
TF's break off
PT boats engage invasion fleet
lots more firing at long range (might get down to 8 km, but not close range)
Both TF's break off
IJN fleets retreat (probably out of ammo) and head for their home port in the daytime portion of their movement leaving the PT's still defending home port

Basically the same thing if the invasion arrives during the daytime

This sequence has happened 2 or 3 times in quick succession. My opponent has not complained, but I am guessing he is pulling his hair out at this point. He reports that all fleets have 'absolute' threat tolerance and he has also tried 'do not retire' for both surface and invasion TF's

He is trying Zero's at 100ft, but they aren't doing a whole lot of damage (not sure how high their 'low nav' or 'strafe' skills are - he may chime in here

It seems to me this pattern is making the PT's overpowered and I want to check that I am not being unfair to my opponent in using them in this fashion

So

Any similar observations?
Suggestions for tactics that haven't been tried by the IJN
House Rules
or just 'suck it up Hirohito' - which to be fair is what he is currently doing

[Yakkface]

Shoot - sorry about spamming this 4 times to the board - have cleaned it up. Forgot how finicky it is

[Yakkface]

Here an example - trimmed down. Final result is no invasion PT remain at Samarinda and IJN TF's heading for home

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 03, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Samarinda at 65,96, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Asakaze
DD Matsukaze
DD Nokaze
DD Namikaze

Allied Ships
PT-39
PT-40
PT-43
PT-44
PT-45
PT-46
PT-47
PT-48

Improved night sighting under 92% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 92% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 10,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-44 at 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-39 at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 9,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-44 at 9,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-43 at 9,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-40 at 9,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-39 at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-48 at 10,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-45 at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-44 at 10,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-43 at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-40 at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-39 at 10,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-44 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-43 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-40 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-47 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-46 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-44 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-43 at 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-39 at 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-44 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-43 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-40 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-39 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-47 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-46 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-45 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-44 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-43 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-40 at 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-39 at 12,000 yards
Task forces break off...


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Night Time Surface Combat, near Samarinda at 65,96, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Yudachi
DD Samidare
xAK Kansai Maru
xAK Kashii Maru
xAK Aobasan Maru
xAK Kinugawa Maru
xAK Nako Maru

Allied Ships
PT-39
PT-40
PT-43
PT-44
PT-45
PT-46
PT-47
PT-48

Improved night sighting under 92% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 92% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 11,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages PT-48 at 11,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 11,000 yards
PT-40 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
PT-40 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 6,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages PT-40 at 6,000 yards
PT-45 engages xAK Nako Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-40 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-44 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-40 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-44 at 7,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Nako Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 7,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-48 at 7,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages PT-48 at 7,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Nako Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-46 at 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-44 engages xAK Nako Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages PT-48 at 10,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 9,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages PT-48 at 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Nako Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 9,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Samarinda at 65,96, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Yudachi
DD Samidare
xAK Kansai Maru
xAK Kashii Maru
xAK Aobasan Maru
xAK Kinugawa Maru
xAK Nako Maru

Allied Ships
PT-39
PT-40
PT-43
PT-44
PT-45
PT-46
PT-47
PT-48

Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 85% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-47 at 11,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 11,000 yards
PT-45 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 11,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Nako Maru at 11,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Nako Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-45 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 9,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-46 at 7,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 7,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-46 at 8,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Nako Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-45 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-44 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 8,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
xAK Nako Maru , xAK Kinugawa Maru screened from combat
- escorted by DD Samidare
PT-48 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 10,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 10,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-46 at 6,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-46 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-45 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-44 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Kashii Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-48 at 5,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Nako Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-47 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-43 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 5,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kinugawa Maru at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
DD Samidare engages PT-47 at 6,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Nako Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-48 engages xAK Aobasan Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-39 engages xAK Kansai Maru at 6,000 yards
Marshall V. orders Allied TF to disengage
Task forces break off...


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Day Time Surface Combat, near Balikpapan at 65,97, Range 13,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Asakaze
DD Matsukaze
DD Nokaze
DD Namikaze

Allied Ships
PT-39
PT-40
PT-43
PT-44
PT-45
PT-46
PT-47
PT-48

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 13,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 13,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 13,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-46 at 13,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-39 at 13,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-48 at 13,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 13,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-44 at 13,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-43 at 13,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-40 at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 11,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-47 at 11,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-46 at 11,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-45 at 11,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-44 at 11,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-43 at 11,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-40 at 11,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-39 at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 10,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 10,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-48 at 10,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-44 at 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-43 at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-40 at 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-39 at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 8,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-47 at 8,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 8,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-48 at 8,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-44 at 8,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-43 at 8,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-40 at 8,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-39 at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-47 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-46 at 12,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-48 at 12,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-44 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-43 at 12,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-40 at 12,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages PT-39 at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-48 at 15,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-47 at 15,000 yards
DD Matsukaze engages PT-48 at 15,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-45 at 15,000 yards
DD Asakaze engages PT-44 at 15,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-43 at 15,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-40 at 15,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages PT-39 at 15,000 yards
Izutsu, H. orders Japanese TF to disengage
Task forces break off...

[rockmedic109]

My knowledge is only against the AI FWIW.

I would love to have an experience like this. I usually end up with wrecked boats without effect on the enemy. The best I hope for is hitting a transport and causing some casualties. Fending off an invasion? Medal of Honor level stuff. Something like this would require me making a short story in the daily notes I make of the war.

[zebrazwo]

Are you using a mod?

[btd64]

I've seen this before, but I don't think there's anything you can really do about it....GP

[Yakkface]

Are you using a mod?

No Mod - scn 2 with the latest beta patch (1.8.11.28.4 March 04 2023)

[btd64]

If you have a base close by, Japanese, you could put a surface TF in the base hex on patrol and see what happens....GP

[Garacho2000]

If you have a base close by, Japanese, you could put a surface TF in the base hex on patrol and see what happens....GP

This may be what I end up trying. I had a similar issue when trying to land invasion forces in the Philippines at the beginning of the war. Concentrated naval attacks at 100 feet by Nates was the only thing that ended up whittling them down.

I would have surface task forces on absolute threat level and remain on station only for them to stand off at 10,000 yards and waste all their ammo. The PTs would "engage" both the surface and invasion force and send them both packing with no hits to either side.

For the invasion of the Philippines this led to a delay of 4 or 5 days for some of my landing forces due to the PT boat TFs.

My previous opponent only (rarely) used PTs in a patrol and offensive role, so I have been trying to learn on the fly how to deal with them defending bases.

[Yakkface]

So - bottom line.

Would you:

A) Feel dirty for using PT boats in this role and stop (again, my opponent has not complained even when I was making jokes about his invasion TF's never finding a home)

B) have an HR that says once out of torps PT boats must leave the base (of course this doesn't help in situations where the base in question will reload the torps)

C) See it as a relatively small issue and carry on with my happy little PT TF's while making more jokes about Japanese invasion TF's being 'of no fixed abode'

[Yaab]

Some old info here. Zeroes against RN PTs. Scen001.

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 6#p3449366

[Sardaukar]

I use them to defend Port Moresby against IJN bombardment TFs.

Works pretty well, especially with dive bombers in base. Enemy TF usually runs out of ammo/ops points to do effective bombardment. Then they *might* still be within range of DBs (or even better, torpedo bombers if you have Air HQ too).

But sooner or later, you run out PT boats....

And then, you are within range of Betties, so cannot put anything bigger than DDs there, which get mauled by BB/CA TFs.

So then you have to bring in CVs to give cover.

[RangerJoe]

Playing dirty would be having 1 PT Boat per TF, then having carriers ready to drop 1000 pound bombs on the ships that can't make it out of the area.

It was common for the PT Boats to be in 2 or 3 boat TFs, that is what happened when PT Boat 109 was run over. The idiot captain was apparently only having 1 engine running to save fuel instead of having all 3 engines running . . .

[Sardaukar]

Well, 1 PT boat per TF is totally feasible, but maybe bit gamey for PBEM.

I like to have at least 2, preferably 4 PT boat TFs in PM of carious sizes, 2-4 boats per TF usually.

Unfortunately I started to run out PT boats, they are fragile. And they need AGP to replenish torpedoes. And fuel.

[Yakkface]

So last turn this happened:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Bandjermasin at 59,101, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
DD Shiranui
DD Urakaze

Allied Ships
MTB 7, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Which prompted some light humour between me and my opponent - I thought I would combine the messages and post here for posterity:

******Upon seeing the explosion, a cheer erupts amongst the Japanese fleet.

Sailors laugh, cry, and embrace each other illuminated by the flames from the floating wreckage of MTB 7.

High above the scene, in the pagoda tower bridge of the battleship Kirishima, Captain Yamaguchi is stunned into silence..... After a few moments he turns to his first officer, and with tears in his eyes and his voice trembling he utters the words "So they can be killed."

The news is promptly radioed to high command. The next day Hirohito addresses the nation, and a ceremony will be held for the captain and crew of the IJN Urakaze. The gunnery officer who landed the killing blow will be awarded the Kinshi Kunshō and receive a personal meeting with the Emperor himself.

For the Japanese nation, the war was already won on the night of February 6th.

Meanwhile at Allied high command the mood was somber. Nay funerial. The wonder weapon, on which the hopes of nations, indeed an entire empire, had been pinned was fallible. Apologists pointed out, in tones progressively more hysterical, that MTB 7 had faced two battleships accompanied by destroyers. A combined tonnage orders-of-magnitude of orders-of-magnitude greater than the little boat. Nobody was listening. At the back of the room, Admiral Halsey gently sobbed . .

Though some hid it better than others, everybody knew what this meant. The war would not be over in 6 months. It would not be over by Christmas. This fate of this little boat meant that the war was going to go on...........for years, and worse, the outcome, now unclear. Victory, that seemed assured just 24 hours previously, now seemed a distant dream with no clear path

FDR - Gentlemen. I need to prepare the American people. There will be panic unless we are able to show we have an alternative plan to win this war. I need to show we had........have contingencies. Ernest?.......George?

Ernest King (Chief of Naval Operations): To be frank Mr President, there didn't seem to be much point developing contingencies, we all thought we had this thing won. Look, maybe if we redesign the cowling on the engines so that.......

FDR, interrupting, but gently, sympathetic to his advisor's fragile state - Ern........Ern, stop. That is just not going to cut it. (louder) Now listen. I need every person in this room to understand that we are living in a new reality. One in which the PT boat cannot deliver a quick, painless victory.

A wail emanated from William 'Bull' Halsey. A sound that could only have come from a rent soul descending into an abyss. bereft of all hope. A sound that chilled the room.

long pause as the echoes die in the concrete bunker

FDR - Please, will someone do something for William, At least get him out of here. He doesn't need to hear this right now, you know he doesn't deal well with adversity..........*Oh* *my* *God* - Douglas (with a speed born of barely suppressed panic) He doesn't know does he? Nobody's told him have they?

George Marshall (Army Chief of Staff) - No sir. I thought it best to let him keep thinking.....um.......what he thinks.

FDR (with relief) Good..........that's very good, I knew I could rely on you George. He only agreed to stay put because I assured him we could get him out whenever he wanted, on one of these things.(Calmer now) So, listen, we are going to come up with a plan right now. Something I can present to the American people. It does not have to be right, but it does have to sound right. I want to be able to give the American people a vision better than Churchill's 'As a consequence of this defeat we shall need to fight on the beaches, streets landing grounds' - all that stuff in his speech.. It was defeatist nonsense.......at least he didn't go on about bodily fluids this time, I swear sometimes that man creeps me right out. So, anyway, ideas.......now........from everyone.

EK: We could build some aircraft carriers. Lots of aircraft carriers - and battleships.(gathering pace now).......and more cruisers..... and make everything faster and more heavily armoured. Oh and destroyers and submarines. Lots and lots of submarines. Maybe start looking into things we can make go bang in a really big way............I mean really, really big

Lots of nodding heads

FDR ..............(disappointed)...........so we are going with that are we?........(room nods).........build lots of shit. - (More nods). (resigned) Fine. If that's the best we can do, then fine. Fine...........Fine. OK (thinking) that's going to involve sacrifice, hardship.......death. . We have sold the idea that this war was not going to be any of that. I am going to have to break it gently. I am going to have to start with at least an acknowledgment our present difficulties, but without dismaying everyone too much, so maybe something just a little ambiguous. (to the room) OK - how does this sound as an opening line: 'The war has progressed not necessarily to our advantage...........

We now leave this den of misery

[PaxMondo]

Nice story line there ... where is your AAR? It would be well received....

As to your OP, the only thing I can think of is IJN TF leader aggressiveness ... for the invasion convoy. In the early war, you want that pretty high. Other than that, some REALLY good rolls for the allies there ....

[LargeSlowTarget]

Yakkface, you made my day with that story Well done.

[zebrazwo]

We need (want!) more of this!

[btd64]

We need (want!) more of this!

Yes we do....GP

[Yakkface]

Well, thanks Chaps. It was a joint effort and we appreciate your kind words.

As for an AAR - for my part, the muse only takes me anywhere good about twice a year. I remember back when I was a regular on the boards there was an AAR by someone (name escapes me) who could post funny shit every day of the week and twice on Sunday (he did a Catch 22 parody with M&M enterprises and had some thing going on with 'Stalker girl'.........and 'stalker girl's' mum ) - I'm afraid that's not me