?'s about the japanese

[walbers]

i'm playing a computer generated 4.0 campaign against far east forces, primarily the japanese.
#1-japanese never retreat, never disperse, never surrender. I suppose this mirrors real life to some degree but it means you absolutely have to eradicate each unit to get somewhere. any suggestions or comments?
#2-god forbid you get the Japanese on the defense. if they are entrenched in fortified positions they are nearly impossible to dig out as they never seem to break or rout when entrenched in bunkers. nothing worse than seeing nothing but 2% to hit when you are in an adjacent hex. and suggestions or comments?
#3-when playing campaign and you stop and save in the middle of a scenario, when you start again, the opposing forces have DOUBLED and now you are faced with eliminating squads of up to 40+ soldiers. Any suggestons or comments on this apparent bug? I saw a thread earlier today on this but it wasn't very insightful.
#4-victory conditions in a computer generated campaign seem ridiculous....just about the only way to get a decisive victory is to play the Nationalist Chinese and wipe out their force in 5 turns with virtually no loss to your units....if you get a draw against the japanese then you are damn lucky. any comments or suggestions?
thanks for your insights....
rgds, will albers

[Bonzo]

#1 - feature of national characteristics on preference screen. Turn it off for an easier time.

#2 - See #1. Also use artillery to soften them up first.

#3 - probably a function of the "Reduced Squads" on the preference screen. turn off reduced squads before you start, or, to enjoy reduced squads, have reduced squads on until just after you start the scenario, then turn them off.

#4 - The above, a little luck & a lot of experience & things will change for you.

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Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator
28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters
Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com
E-mail nwbattalion@icqmail.com

[Pack Rat]

Suppress them. Engineers work well against them, flame tanks if you can get them. Tanks bristling with machine guns are good, but let your recon or infantry find them first. If you're playing a defense, machine guns are a must, screen these with infantry and use tanks to plug holes. Playing defense against the Japanese were some of my best battles. Have fun and try a pbem for even more fun.

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Your mine is a terrible thing to lose.
Pack Rat

[Viriato]

hello all . these features are probably very accurate ,the japonese soldier had not much initiative but was fanatical when ordered , remember the stories of the wonded that waited for the allied medics to close and the blew themselfs up , or the very low number of jap pow taken during the frist 4 years of WWII , and the banzai charges .
to play against the jap army is one of the most chalenging things you can do , so , good luck ...

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A sorte protege os audazes

[Fredde]

Use an infantry unit to make the first shot, then the japs will fire back and expose themselves for fire from your other units. Great way to get rid of that 2% hit chance

Move around them if possible.. when you captured enough victory hexes they will come for you instead (movement to force the enemy to react on you instead and let you fight defensively is a great strategy/tactic both for real and in wargames).

[Peregrine Falcon]

This may be historical babble, but here it goes..

It was codes of Bushido (ancient 'Code of the Warrior') that ruled Japanese soldiers, and more importantly, their oath to the
Emperor. If you allowed yourself to became POW, it was regarded as the ultimate shame, you lost all your value as a person.
(this was one reason why Allied POW's suffered so much in Japanese
POW camps)

Very few Japanese prisoners were taken when USA did their 'Island hopping' through
the Pacific.

FEW FACTS (accurate enough):

Betio - 4800 troops, less than 150 surrendered (3300 US.casualties)
Peleliu - 6500 troops, 300 surrendered (most were laborers) (6500 US.casualties)
Saipan - 22000/6690 Army/Navy troops, 1780 prisoners (13000 US.casualties)

I think I dont need to mention battles like Iwo Jima and Okinawa...


What is true in WWII history, is partially true in SPWAW. Only way to
defeat Japanese troops, is to use flamethrowers, heavy CS-equipment &
naval artillery (but just like in Betio, that did not work as it should. Japanese troops were inside very tough bunkers and fortifications)

[Major_Johnson]

You know, I read somewhere that for the longest time the Japanese treated their prisoners the best, but then at the turn of the century (19th) something changed they became barbaric. Anyone know anything about this??

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MJ
We serve others best when at the same time we serve ourselves.

[lnp4668]

USMC tends to have good fire power at close range. If you could pin down the Japanese, move the marine to 1 hex range then pound with everything you have.

I actually think that Japanese's inability to retreat more of a liability than asset. Once they are pinned, they are gone unless being rescue by another squad.

[mogami]

Hi, Japan was the first country to use machine guns in war (versus Russia 1904-1905) unfortunatly for them that was their last innovation in land warfare. The model 38 rifle was first issued in 1911 (the 38th year of the emperour Mejii (hence the 38 in it's name) After Hirohito became ruler they switched the naming method to month and year
hence the "Zero" in 1940. The myth persits to this day that somehow the Japanese were good jungle fighters, fanatic fighters who refused to surrender. The truth is they were poorly equipped/trained for the jungle and died by the thousands as a result and were more then willing to surrender but the offer was rarly accepted by the Marines/US Army units they fought. (not that a Japanese officer would let them, so it was first nessacary to have no officer) The type 38 rifle is over 5 feet long the average japanese soldier was 5' 3" so they were trained to shoot in a squatting or kneeing position. Some idea of doctrine can be gleaned from the fact that all Japanese light machine guns were equipped with bayonets!!! The Japanese soldier did not fight with the code of Bushido (his officer did) He followed the Japanese custom of following the superiour and doing what he was told. The Japaese command believed the "will" to win was better then any equippment (al la France 1914) Starting in 1904 this resulted in heavy lossess during infantry assualts that the IJA never worried about. Faced in WWII with modern opponents the IJA had almost no chance (they did not bother to even start working on an infantry anti tank weapon till late in the war) In SPWaW you sometimes have to chase down your opponent to kill him versus the Japanese just sit still they will come to you. The secret is firepower. The Japanese infantry en mass can scare the crap out of you if you go without the support weapons (arty/air) or get caught 1 squad at a time. But if you mass your heaver/superiour weapons they die pretty fast. On defense they are tough nuts (as indeed they were)Do not go in a hurry. Arty can suppress them but a Japanese unit never retreats/surrenders so if you stop suppressing them they recover. move an engineer (with a AFV in support) covered by heavy machineguns up to each Japanese unit you find (after really suppressing them) and flame on, they will sit there intill you kill them, but watch out for other units coming out of no where. No other country in history has ever had to endure the total loss of some many combat formations. In the Japanese military suicide missions land/sea/air were not volunteer.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[Grumble]

"In the Japanese military suicide missions land/sea/air were not volunteer"
Not entirely accurate. The actual "Kamikaze" were Naval air forces stationed in the Phillippines. These WERE volunteers, and remained so until the middle of the Okinawa campaign. In fact, Adm Onishi who developed the idea was so distraught by the idea of non-volunteers he officially complained to the Army high-command (whose "Special Attackers" were not volunteers).
As far as Bushido, yes technically only officers were fully indocrinated. HOWEVER, as part of the public-school system all Japanese children learned the basic tenets of Bushido: Emperor worship, absolute obediance, and duty to the Emperor and Empire.
FWIW, in after-action reports I've read, and accounts by my parents' next-door neighbor who was at Guadalcanal and Saipan, confirmed by Australian veterans I've met, Japanese NEVER made offers of surrender, such offers were initiated by the forces opposing them.

[Wild Bill]

Very good info. The Pacific theater has always been my favorite.

Perhaps settings are a little extreme, but I do feel the mirror the intensity and tenacity of the Japanese soldier during the war.

Or in other words, it does have a Pacific feel to it.

USMC and Army troops were often not in a mood to take prisoners anyway

Wild Bill


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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

[hhsohn]

Originally posted by Major_Johnson:
You know, I read somewhere that for the longest time the Japanese treated their prisoners the best, but then at the turn of the century (19th) something changed they became barbaric. Anyone know anything about this??

As far as I know, they've always been considered to be barbarians by Koreans. Korea's been invaded by them couple of times, and apparantly there's records from both sides of their atrocities against POW's and civilians.

[mogami]

Hi, I also incorrectly said the first use of MG's was 1904-05 it was the earlier war with China shortly before Spanish-American war where Japan indroduce the MG. I did not mean Japanese could not volunteer I meant they didn't have to. When asked the entire group in PI volunteered (I never heard of a Japanese refusing to volunteer) but it was also quite normal to order a man to a suicide mission (dig a hole put a 500lb bomb and a man with a hammer in it...AT mine)
The first step to the code of Bushido is to be Shinto (many Japanese are just plain Buddists) Shinto is a mix of various eastern beliefs. The return of the Samurai tradition after about 100 year lapse saw the code of Bushido return with it. The main point being that Japan would have done well in France 1914-1918 but were severly handicapped in 42-45 when they went up against modern armies.
Don't forget the Russians beat them before the War and again right at it's close (It is the forgotten massacure of WWII) Thousands of Japanese tried to surrender!!! Hundreds of thousands died rather then surrender. Most POW's were captured after being wounded and being lucky in who was there to take them. (many wounded Japanese were just shot)
The allies were not in the mood to take prisoners after so many tricks and misdeeds.
(It was common to find dead allies who it was appearent had been killed after they surrenderd.) The IJN routinly threw captured allied pilots and aircrew overboard after questioning them. The disipline in the Japanese army was brutal and the troops themselves (like the axis in Russia) were allowed to commit outrages against POW's/civilians in commpensation for battlefield behavior (it was thought good to keep them cruel for combat) Westerners often times forget just how long the IJA had been fighting. Before Pearl Harbour Japan had already suffered more casualties then the US lost in all theatres during the war. The Japan Russian War of 1904-05 was the greatest war in history up to that time and the country remained almost continusly at war from then till 1945. Many of the outrages commited by the IJA in China were a result of high casualties (revenge and an attempt to cow China into submission) Nanking was sacked by a General who had been embarrassed by how long it took him to capture it. (a prince so less) In SPWaW one of the effects of the no retreat no surrender attribute is to make Japanese infantry great tank killers (the game considers SNLF elite) Becarefull about getting to close. (In my present campaign I have 4 companies no AFV's and after 7 battles I have lost 500 men and killed 3500 and destroyed 281 AFV's) But now it is Dec 41 so those days will be over soon.
Kamikaze aircraft carried radio's the last words spoken by the vast majority of those young pilots was "Momma"

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited January 11, 2001).]

[orc4hire]

Mogami,

If you're referring to the 1894 war as the first use of the machine gun in combat, I'm afraid the Matabele War in 1893 beats it.

It's a dirty little secret of war that no troops of any nationality or time period take many prisoners during opposed assaults. That's just the way it is. But there are a lot more records of Japanese troops committing mass suicide rather than surrender than there are of Japanese troops surrendering.

I personally date the start of WWII at 1937.

[Charles22]

I don't know. Wasn't the Gatlin Gun used some in the Civil War, beat them all as the first machine gun?

[orc4hire]

The Gatling, Mitraileuse, Hotchkis, and Nordenfeldt aren't considered 'full' machine guns as they weren't really automatic, but hand cranked. The Maxim gun was the first true machine gun, auto-loading, belt fed, and water cooled.

[Charles22]

orc4hire: That may be so, but I hadn't seen anyone refer to "full" mgs, so that the first use of a mg would include the Gatlin. I've always thought of a machine gun as just being a gun with a high ROF that fires bullets.

In any case, here's the Webster's:

Main Entry: ma·chine-gun
Pronunciation: m&-'shEn-"g&n
Function: adjective
Date: 1906
: characterized by rapidity and sharpness : RAPID-FIRE <a comic's machine&#8211;gun delivery>


Here's another:Main Entry: machine gun
Function: noun
Date: 1870
: a gun for sustained rapid fire that uses bullets; broadly : an automatic weapon
- machine-gun verb
- machine gun·ner noun

[orc4hire]

Whatever, Charles.

[Tombstone]

Whoah. I don't think that we should let our understanding of the development of military technology be led by a dictionary. That's for everyday folk, not people who are into the details. As far as Japan in the war, it is true that the average soldier, although in touch with the issue of honor and their nation, were in no way fanatical super high morale soldiers. They were regular people, with standard fears and properly functioning logical thinking abilities. The command was to blame for much of the character we see in the Japanese armed forces of the time. They WERE crazy, or at least very extreme in their thinking. A lot of their faults stemmed from their lack of respect for their enemy. Quite a fatal flaw...

Tomo

[rexmonday]

Major Johnson asked about the Japanese taking good care of prisoners up until about 1900 ... I believe it was in the Sino-Russian war that the Russians were well cared for. I seem to recall this as being about 1904 or thereabouts.

It has to be remembered that despite the horrific treatment received by western prisoners of the Japanese in WWII very often the Japanese foot soldier was being treated little better by his superiors and the jungle which often surrounded him. Very often the POWs that he would be guarding would have many more medical staff (whether army medical or colonial civilians) per head than the Japanese army. True the japanese army had better medical supplies, but they too had a pretty high incidence of death from disease in places like Burma.

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respectful pause for all those who were involved in this all
***

as far as the game goes, without wanting to change tone too quickly, when facing the japanese infantry you have to have 2 things - long range and short range units. Get some machine guns or light mortars set up to hit japanese units in the open at long distance, and also have some engineer or SMG armed troops for close in face-to-face, toe-to-toe jungle fighting. Make use of any spaces in the jungle, even if only a hex wide to set up kill zones.

In game terms the japanese units will never surrender, rout or retreat, and there seems to be some debate going on here as to whether this is realistic or not. In my opinion it is acceptable, as although the units never do these things in SP infantry casualties cover not only fatalities but also wounded and dispirited troops. Thus some of those so called infantry kills may in fact just be Japanese infantry that have decided it is not worth dying for their emperor after all.