Japanese "Uber CV TFs"

[spence]

I guess this question would be mostly for experienced Japanese Players of PBEM. How many carriers are you likely to get for your big offensive in the early part of Scenario 19:

a) assuming 100% ship commitment?

b) assuming 120-140% ship commitment?

I'm always reading about these "UBERGROUPS" of Japanese carriers but so far in two PBEM games (admittedly as Allies) I haven't seen anything so formidable (thank goodness!!!! ). The number of BBs hasn't been too overwhelming in those games either. I think the ship commitment is 120 for the IJN and 100 for the USN in both.

Are these "Uber CV TFs" a phenomenon associated only with 200% ship commitment or something? How does one get find a USN opponent who will agree to play with such a handicap? :rolleyes:

[pasternakski]

I think people are referring to Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku and a few CVLs all acting like one big, happy family - they all like to go everywhere together. Eventually, the USN can assemble an "uber CV TF," as well, with the three Hornets, two Lexingtons, and the Wasp, but early on, the Japanese have a big advantage in numbers.

As the Allies, you have to hope you can "chip away" in the early going to keep this bad bunch from clustering together, because they can do a lot of damage and cover an invasion of an "automatic victory" base against which the Allies can do very little until they get four or five carriers of their own backed up by significant numbers of high-experience LBA.

The Japanese opportunity is fleeting, but they are very powerful in that window of opportunity from June to around October of '42.

[Mike_B20]

I guess this question would be mostly for experienced Japanese Players of PBEM. How many carriers are you likely to get for your big offensive in the early part of Scenario 19:

a) assuming 100% ship commitment?

b) assuming 120-140% ship commitment?

I'm always reading about these "UBERGROUPS" of Japanese carriers but so far in two PBEM games (admittedly as Allies) I haven't seen anything so formidable (thank goodness!!!! ). The number of BBs hasn't been too overwhelming in those games either. I think the ship commitment is 120 for the IJN and 100 for the USN in both.

Are these "Uber CV TFs" a phenomenon associated only with 200% ship commitment or something? How does one get find a USN opponent who will agree to play with such a handicap? :rolleyes:

I haven't played as IJN n scenario 19 but I've played as allies in scenario 17 where the commitment levels were US 100% and Japanese 140%.
If I recall correctly, playing scenario 19 is similar to playing scenario 17 at US 100%, IJN 140% with a lot more air squads for IJN (please correct me someone if I'm wrong).

Anyway, playing those settings I've seen groups of 10 IJN CV's/CVL's on map by mid June/early July 42
If the IJN really wants to go over the top he can even throw in some CS's loaded up with float fighters.
When these 'uber' CV taskforces launch strikes, they don't just damage ships or taskforces, they completely vaporize them.

When faced with these the allies only recourse is to try and stay out of the way and slowly attrit the IJN CV squads with land based air.
I really prefer as allies to try and get in a strike against the IJN CV's before they get this strong and have been successfull so far where my opponent has allowed me to engage Shokaku, Zuikaku and Shoho early.
Timing is important here for allies as you need to wait for all the pluses you can get... size 36 F4F squads, maybe put that first marine fighter unit on board a CV, rested US squads/tired IJN CV squads (very important),etc.

There has been a lot of talk about the nonexistent longterm chances of IJN and there are usually allied players lining up to suffer the early disadvantages (makes for some scary moments playing as allies early ).

[Oleg Mastruko]

I guess this question would be mostly for experienced Japanese Players of PBEM. How many carriers are you likely to get for your big offensive in the early part of Scenario 19

I guess it does not matter what your ship commitment is, because you should get your CVs before ship commitment gets to "low". Of yourse, with very variable reinforcements and such: YMMV, but you can always return some BBs to Truk and hope for a CV.

I form my uber-groups around carriers Pasternak mentioned (he forgot Junyo though), so my recipe would be:

Kaga, Akagi, Skoq, Zui, Hiryu, Soryu, Junyo, and 3 CVLs I forgot their names (Ryujo, Zuiho, Shoho IIRC). Add 2-3 scout cruisers, one CL with radar (Kuma class?), 1-2 Yugumo class DDs (they have radars too), fill up to capacity with Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu DDs, put them all in one TF, put Mr. Yamaguchi in command, stir well, and serve cold.

That should give you 574-aircraft TF, equipped with radar, 50-some float planes for recon. Early USN CV force can field 6 CVs with 512 aircraft - formidable opponent, but still...

a) He MUST have some SBDs on naval patrol - the more the better. You have CSs in specialised naval search role which helps a LOT. Spotting decides who gets the first strike, it decides who's going to have better threat assessment etc. Many a CV battlle in my games was basically decided by having better recon, although it wasn't always obvious. Sometimes side with no recon won't even launch (ie. will be sunk before they decide to launch).

b) You don't have to wait until you have all the CVs in a mega-force. If you're absolutely sure you can force an early CV battle with 2:1 aircraft odds in you favor, go for it. If not, wait for all the CVs.

c) Once you have your mega-force, wait until July 1st to sail from harbor (July 2nd to July 10th is the best option) and absolutely try to force a CV battle. US CVs still don't have Avengers, and you'd have 620-aircraft force then (because of IJN squadron reformation). Smart USN player in PBEM will avoid you like hell. Others will try to confront you, but most probably will regret it.

US advatages are in that his CVs are more durable (most of them are, not all), will most probably fight nearer to their bases, and have better damage control. So try to use rule b) - catch some of his CVs early if you have 2:1 advantage in aircraft, but be 100% sure what you're up against. Don't fight unless you know for sure how many CVs are against you.

Since I use these simple rules, I've never lost a CV battle as IJN. Before that I tried to emulate Yamamoto, dividing forces, making extremely complicated plans etc. and was losing CV battles half of the time.

Klocken nicht kleckern - as Manteuffel said... or was it Guderian? Or Luck? Or Manstein? Perhaps even Hitler?

O.

[Bodhi]

Klocken nicht kleckern - as Manteuffel said... or was it Guderian? Or Luck? Or Manstein? Perhaps even Hitler?
O.

Guderian I believe.

[pasternakski]

Great post, Oleg. I tend to think of Junyo and Hiyo as "lights" rather than "fleets," but the principle is the same. I, too, have had excellent success by playing a forceful-but-conservative game as the Japanese in UV.

One thing that can hurt you, though, even in the midst of an apparently successful campaign, is excessive naval aircraft losses. Even at the height of your power, you've got to be careful not to lose too many of your good pilots. The USN keeps coming - and coming - and coming if he can preserve a decent number of fleet CVs while clipping one or two of yours (sunk or so damaged as to need a trip to Tokyo).

Watch those Allied subs! A fortuitous torpedo hit or two on one of the "Pearl Harbor" CVs can make a huge difference in the course of a campaign.

As you mention, one of the fascinating things that happens early on is the 36-fighter plane augmentation of Yorktown and Lexington. There is a small space in there between this happening and arrival of the Japanese "Midway" carriers. The Allies can accomplish some interesting things that create serious difficulties for the Japanese during this brief span of time. Some of them are recapture of Gili-Gili, and landing of the Americal division on Lunga (they're like ants in your kitchen: once they're living la vida loca, they're hard to get rid of).

[denisonh]

I have found Gili Gili of marginal value, at least early on.

And as the IJN, any Allied ground units deployed to GG can be isolated and "stuck" there. And not available for a potential defense of an invasion of Australia by the IJN.

The Americal on Lunga early, on the other hand, can pose a real problem....

[Philwd]

Denisonh

Be careful of bypassing GG early on. I did the same in my last game. Condor flew and FT in a couple eng units and quickly got a base set up. I was unable to close it back down due to lack of planes and sub attacks on my BB forces.

Condor then flew in the full complement of planes of 2 carriers. He caught me so flat footed as I was in the middle of the PM invasion. Its now late Oct and Nagato and Mutsu still haven't repaired their damage. Yamato is finally in fighting trim. Had around 7 cruisers sunk or laid up for months. Kaga and Shok took bomb hits fighting my way back onto GG.

Actually that single action delayed me enough I failed on my Oz invasions. Never again will I bypass GG.

Quark

[Christof]

Klocken nicht kleckern - as Manteuffel said... or was it Guderian? Or Luck? Or Manstein? Perhaps even Hitler?

It should read:
NICHT KLECKERN - KLOTZEN

Guderians quote as far as I know.

Chris

[spence]

Thanks to all who have shared their experience with me so far.

I have just learned (late 7/42) that HIJMS Shoho is sleeping with the fishes. Last time I saw her was in mid May (through the bombsight of a B-17). I'm kinda curious as to when she actually sank so I asked my opponent but so far no reply (maybe cause he's got another CVL that was mined and then set upon in a temporary harbor of refuge by LBA and hit some more.

We've had four CV battles so far. We traded a CV apiece sunk in the 1st Battle of the Coral Sea. I got lucky and damaged a CV and Shoho in the 2nd Battle of the Coral Sea without even scratched paint in return (most of his Zeroes were on air interdiction over Port Moresby and his attack groups were still all shot up from 1st Coral Sea). Then I got myself in trouble with a raid on Tulagi that developed into the (1st) Battle of the Solomon Sea (to use an IJN name for Guadalcanal area). This is where I ran into the whole IJN but no CV Ubergroup. I think I remember seeing Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Zuiho and Ryujo (or Ryuho).
That was around mid June and I think I may have damaged a CV and the "R" CVL (definitely damaged) for the loss of 2 CV.

The last CV Battle developed out of the 2nd actual raid (3rd try) on the Tulagi anchorage. Unlike the 1st raid I didn't close to close range and got outta Dodge ASAP after dinging up a couple of Kongos. The next day however I came under long range attacks by a force of 3 CV and a CVL along with LBA from Lunga. The attacks were kinda uncoordinated and mostly resulted in a lot of Japanese attack pilots learning to swim for just one 250kg bomb hit on Enterprise. I kept heading back towards Espiritu Santo and he followed though he didn't continue to launch the long range strikes except with LBA. Once well under the cover of ES I turned to thumb my nose (oops) and we had another carrier exchange. I damaged Kaga heavily and Hiryu some. He damaged two of my CVs. Then WE retreated. On the way home a sub popped Kaga with a torpedo. And Zuiho hit a mine in Tulagi anchorage-
then got popped by a night raid in Lunga Roads by bomb totting PBYs and B-17s.

Well my opponent confessed he's out of CVs. I can positively account for Zuikaku and Shoho sunk, Kaga heavily damaged, the 'R' CVL and Hiryu hit by 2 x 1000 lbers, Shokaku hit by 1 x 1000 lber and Zuiho hit by a mine and 2 x 500 lbers. That leaves Junyo, Akagi, Hosho (I don't know - is this really a CVL or more or less a Long Island), Soryu and maybe more unaccounted for. Leads to my next thoughts/questions?

1. Would a single 1000 lb bomb damage Shokaku so much that it'd be prudent to send it home to Tokyo?
2. I agree that Junyos are CVL-like in that it seems pretty easy to put one OOC. Are Hiryu/Soryu not very durable either?
3. Do Japanese CVs start leaking again after repairing their FLT damage? Like on the way back to Truk FFT to Japan?

[pasternakski]

Denisonh

Be careful of bypassing GG early on. I did the same in my last game. Condor flew and FT in a couple eng units and quickly got a base set up. I was unable to close it back down due to lack of planes and sub attacks on my BB forces.

Condor then flew in the full complement of planes of 2 carriers. He caught me so flat footed as I was in the middle of the PM invasion. Its now late Oct and Nagato and Mutsu still haven't repaired their damage. Yamato is finally in fighting trim. Had around 7 cruisers sunk or laid up for months. Kaga and Shok took bomb hits fighting my way back onto GG.

Actually that single action delayed me enough I failed on my Oz invasions. Never again will I bypass GG.

Quark

Yep. I had to learn the hard way a lot of times that Gili-Gili can be used to change the focus of the Japanese player and delay his operations further south (and in the SoPac area, as well). And we all know what "delay" means to the Japanese in UV...

[Oleg Mastruko]

Thanks to all who have shared their experience with me so far.
1. Would a single 1000 lb bomb damage Shokaku so much that it'd be prudent to send it home to Tokyo?
2. I agree that Junyos are CVL-like in that it seems pretty easy to put one OOC. Are Hiryu/Soryu not very durable either?
3. Do Japanese CVs start leaking again after repairing their FLT damage? Like on the way back to Truk FFT to Japan?

You have him by the horns as the saying goes, as the IJN needs its CVs to continue the invasion much more than you need yours (for when you start your invasions). I can't help but notice that he played totally opposite to the "rules" I laid few posts above - but I learned them the hard way too... not to mention Yamamoto and Nagumo Retire your surviving CVs, repair them and spend next few months watching him squirm trying to maintain invasion momentum without his CVs (very hard for IJN), before finally admitting the game is lost by autumn/winter

1. It's hard to tell, as damage varies a lot (which is realistic). Once (as USN) I had Yorktown torpedoed by 2 IJN sub torps, and while I was horrfied by this I opened the turn to see she has only 12 sys damage and some small float and fire damage that was repaired by next turn (both torps exploded in combat animation BTW, and were listed in combatreport.txt my opponent sent me, so they were "real"). That's fine, not every torp hit was the same.

2. Junyo durability rating is 50, Soryu/Hiryu are at 65 I believe. (BTW and off topic, for long time I argue that this, durability rating should be how much ship are worth game point wise, so lost CVs won't be as catastrophic as they are now).

3. If the float damage is repaired completely (brought to zero) before sending them anywhere - they won't "leak", tho you may hlep them to start leaking again, if you know what I mean

Oleg

[Bodhi]

Klocken nicht kleckern - as Manteuffel said... or was it Guderian? Or Luck? Or Manstein? Perhaps even Hitler?

It should read:
NICHT KLECKERN - KLOTZEN

Guderians quote as far as I know.

Chris

Ummmm, in the English translation of von Mellenthin's Panzer Battles (it's quoted as "Klotzen, nicht kleckern" (and referenced to 315-316 of Panzer Leader by Guderian).