Attacking Tigers

TigerOfChaos · Post by **TigerOfChaos** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:13 am

Hello everyone,

I've been playing SP:WaW for some time now, as Germany naturally. Battles with the date set so that I can purchase a lot of Konigstigers and Panthers. With maximum battle points set; infinite ammo, but no historic ratings.

My question is, is there any way that such a force can be defeated? The battles are rather one-sided, as no matter what forces the US Army or the Soviets bring, the cats can rip through them without much difficulty. In fact, Infantry gets more kills than their tanks do. Battles are meeting engagements, should give both of us equal purchase points, right?

My question is, how would I go about defeating such a force of German super-tanks?

(I'm slightly wimpy regarding the infinite ammo, as it does help get a lot of artillery strikes in...)

AngryDeemon1 · Post by **AngryDeemon1** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:12 am

Play against a human opponent. I would gladly Anihilate such an offbalanced force:) Vs. the AI - nothing ai is stupid.

Svennemir · Post by **Svennemir** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:41 am

Airstrikes could do it. But there are other ways as well.

While I'm normally not into bragging, some of my old opponents now know that certain tactics work pretty well against the expensive-tank-force. Here is one possible way:

use a long line of infantry advancing on foot through the map. The opponent will have to spread out the tanks in order to hold the central victory hexes against this spread-out attack. You will have a strong (and preferably fast) force of tanks massed in a forest or behind some hill. Don't let him find them! When the infantry battle starts, the opponent probably try to maintain a front across the whole map, using stationary tanks to fend off the advancing infantry.

At this point, target the tanks at one specific point with your artillery, and immediately afterwards roll forwards with all of your armoured force. Flanking is highly useful, see if you can place your tanks such that they can attack e.g. from the north and east so you always have some tanks that can fire at the hull sides.

Your determined swarming attack will probably destroy or immobilize (same thing!) several enemy vehicles, while others will be forced to pull back. Then you just have to decide whether you will continue pushing onward with the tanks, or if you'll let the infantry take over the work (try to maintain a fast push once your surprise has been used).

Many German tank-fans feel invincible and will advance to the point at which concealed anti-tank guns can attack them from the side, or possibly rear. Don't hesitate to leave parts of your front line "seemingly open". Meanwhile you can advance with infantry at other parts of the map (if possible in forests where they are not seen).

So why does infantry work so well here? It's because Tigers and Panthers are not particularly good at defeating infantry when you compare their purchase price to e.g. Pz-IV tanks. If your opponent uses PzIV and StuG, these tactics will probably be less effective. That's why a balanced force is so important - you have units specialized for every situation. I normally don't buy a lot of heavy stuff, but mix it with mediums.

Capt. Pixel · Post by **Capt. Pixel** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:07 am

Big, heavily armored units all have the same vulnerabilities as their lesser counter-parts. Armor penetrating shots notwithstanding.

They're still subject to hits that pop crews, destroy the main guns or gun sights.

They can be immobilized and/or slowed by shots to the tracks and engine.

Multiple shots from just about anything tends to increase their suppression. Shoot many times and often. Eventually they won't be able to shoot back effectively. I've chased Tigers with 50cal jeeps using this method.

They're still vulnerable to AT-capable infantry assaulting them. Lots of artillery smoke around your infantry helps accomplish this. Approach the vehicle from heavy cover with your Range set to '0'. Often the vehicle crew won't even see the infantry until it's too late.

Their side and rear armor is usually insufficient (particularly true with the German vehicles). Draw fire from an angle that forces them to rotate their turrets, then fire at the exposed side armor.

Also, the bigger the gun, the fewer times it can fire in a turn. They can't shoot at everything coming towards them. Draw off long-range Op Fire shots with lesser units and then rush in with your more powerful units at close range and on a flank if you can get it.

I tend to treat the 'heavies' much as I would an assault on a pillbox or strongpoint. Isolate and then destroy them piecemeal.

TigerOfChaos · Post by **TigerOfChaos** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:53 pm

Thanks!

It's good to hear that tactics can defeat a force that seems (to me) to be undefeatable.

Would there be a scenario available where I could try out these tactics? The 'Defeating a Tiger' tutorial scenario has just one Tiger, and I would like to see their effectiveness againt a mass of tigers (even 10,000 points can help buy a whole mess of cats, StuG 33's and rocket artillery which can really mess up the infantry supression levels.)

Their side and rear armor is usually insufficient (particularly true with the German vehicles). Draw fire from an angle that forces them to rotate their turrets, then fire at the exposed side armor.

Capt., but isn't where the hit occurs based on chance? Even if the AT crew is to the side of a tiger that has already fired off its guns, they would still have to take a few shots to be sure of the kill, which doesn't really help in keeping them invisible from the neighboring tanks.

This is probably off-topic, but should I continue playing with limited ammo off? It probably makes the game unrealistic.

I normally don't buy a lot of heavy stuff, but mix it with mediums.

That's good advice, thanks!

Vathailos · Post by **Vathailos** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:16 pm

I’d agree with an earlier observation that you’ve selected a rather unrealistic (and certainly historically inaccurate) force composition. With all the “unlimited ammo/maximum points” settings you’ve chosen, it’s like playing a video game with all the cheat codes on. Where’s the challenge?

And despite that, good tactics (which you won’t get from the AI) could dismantle your “super force” rather quickly. It IS however, a good way to re-build self-esteem after a game with Viking, RB, or Gary

.

RE: hit location – It is only somewhat “randomized”. I’m not sure it’s even possible to hit the rear of a vehicle if you’re firing from the front. Likewise, you won’t hit the opposite side if you’re firing at a 45-degreee angle at one side/front of a vehicle. The height is somewhat randomized, comparing the firing unit and target’s elevation. And the location of the round’s strike is randomized to a degree with regard to where it strikes, within limitations.

To use your example, If you’re firing flat-on a 90-degree angle with a flank shot at an AFV (he’s facing North for example and you’re firing from the East), you might hit tracks, turret, or vehicle side. You wouldn’t see a hit on the other side of the vehicle. Now, the turret hit might be a front, side, rear or top hit based upon the direction of the target’s turret at the time of the shot, and the elevation comparison between target and shooter. But if you hit the side of the vehicle, in most cases you’re applying your penetration against the side armor (and skirts if applicable). Side armor is less than frontal armor in almost EVERY case. So side/rear shots are preferred.

If it’s an AT team in H2H .FR, close to the AFV, and their secondary weapons are turned OFF, good luck spotting them with a suppressed AFV. I’ve had enemies fire 4-5 times at close range with Bazookas or PanzerShrecks/Fausts and remain hidden. Turn that secondary weapon off! Miscellaneous Small Arms won’t penetrate the side of most AFVs, so turn them off, and decrease the chance you’ll be spotted (less shots = less chances to spot).

One other observation, with max points on, and you purchasing a TON of units, the AI may not be able to spend all their points because there is a finite number of slots in SPWAW for units. I can’t currently remember what it is, but for sake of argument let’s say it’s 400. That’s all the game will/can track (some more seasoned player will correct me, hopefully). If you buy 300 units, that only leaves 100 “slots” for the AI to buy units in, even if it has 6000 points left. If the slots are already used up, those points can’t be spent. I could complicate that issue by talking about reinforcement purchases, but the AI doesn’t do it. So, the point I’m trying to make is that you not only have all the “cheat codes” on, you’re furthering your advantage by purchasing a ton of units thereby limiting the number the AI gets to buy. One other thing you could do would be to set the Easy/Medium/Hard battle difficulty setting to easy (giving the AI only ½ the points you have to build your force. But if the slots are all used up, that’s a moot point.

And BTW, Welcome, and good luck!

chief · Post by **chief** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:35 pm

Mien Gott with all dem Tiger tankems and ubersupplies we could have vun der war........A. H. :rolleyes:

TigerOfChaos · Post by **TigerOfChaos** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:34 pm

Jawohl, mein Fuhrer... but I think I'll stick to more realistic situations against AI. As Vathailos says, there is no challenge in using unfair means. Though it certainly is very soothing to see the effects of multiple rockets on the large infantry forces the AI insists on sending :p

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:56 pm

Tiger, I never buy the KingTigers unless I'm playing a newbie and then it's only for fun. What's a KingTiger cost? About 250? I can buy about 8 squads of Rangers with that. Who do you think is going to win that battle? In a real battle you don't want "all your eggs in one basket" as we say.

I suggest you start a campaign in 1939 as the Germans and just work your way through the war. As you progress, you will get to see the new equipment as it is introduced and you will have to learn tactics to defeat the other countries as there equipments gets better than yours. (e.g. try taking out a Matilda with a Pz38(t) using the Tiger and Panther tactics you've developed. You'll get crushed even by the AI.) The real fun and strategy of the game is in using limited resources to defeat a superior (or equal at least) enemy. I think it is OK to use the late war equipment to learn the mechanics of the game because you can make more mistakes and still survive to learn a lesson. But, once you know how the game works, you really should start in the early war years and learn some real combined arms tactics.

You should also play with all reality options on (limited ammo, reduced squads, breakdowns, etc. except C&C unless you like that kind of thing (I don't)). Unlimited rockets is really not a good way to play.

I'd be happy to PBEM you and teach you some things.

Svennemir · Post by **Svennemir** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:22 am

I’m not sure it’s even possible to hit the rear of a vehicle if you’re firing from the front.

If this issue has not been touched recently, it *is* technically possible. In 7.1 when the Splash Damage fix was applied, there arose a technical possibility of hitting any (non-bottom) location on a vehicle. Another side effect is the possibility of hitting a vehicle twice with one shot.

The game first checks for direct hit, and then afterwards checks for splash damage. Since 7.1, splash damage was not applied to units under targetted fire; which meant sometimes it was better to use the "attack hex" than specifically target the unit. That was for obvious reasons not very good, so it was changed. The changes of the aforementioned side effects to occur are very slim and were not considered a problem.

This fix also explains the increased suppression vehicles get when fired upon, especially by light arms (this is somewhat more of a serious issue, but I think it was in fact possible to do the same thing in earlier versions as well using "attack hex")

In case any of you care.

Capt. Pixel · Post by **Capt. Pixel** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:05 am

Svennemir wrote:If this issue has not been touched recently, it *is* technically possible. In 7.1 when the Splash Damage fix was applied, there arose a technical possibility of hitting any (non-bottom) location on a vehicle. Another side effect is the possibility of hitting a vehicle twice with one shot.
.......

I've noticed this happening a couple of times. But it's so infrequent that I don't see it as much of a problem. I guess it kind of simulates some of the bizarre things that actually DO happen in combat.

As far as getting the target to rotate to a more vulnerable postion, the shot you take is random in terms of whether you'll hit the turret or the hull. But that would always be the case. In this situation, you've somewhat improved your chances to damage the target because at least the lesser turret armor is exposed.

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:41 pm

i buy tiger or even KT´s very rare.

for my playing style they are too slow
( expensive )

i would go w/ much STUGS,STUHS and to
back up some panthers. together w/ somelight
recon HT´s, "luchs" or "puma" vehicles as german.

also the brummbär is a good choice, but watch
out f. your own inf. if you use them close range!

killing tigers CAN be simple you must give them all
fire you have even inf. weapons count. also you
must be willing to sacrifice some cheap units to
eat up their opp. fire.

as russian buy ( my secret tip ! ) much SU57. they
are really good against inf. too, because they mount
a 12,7mm Mg, too. also SU85 are good, together with
some T34 or later in the war IS tanks. you got 2-3
SU85 for 1 tiger ( depending on exp. ) in H2H.

as americans buy hellcats and some light armor as
greyhounds + stuarts. perhaps some shermans for
anti inf use.

as brits ? probably those good AC´s and fireflys. but
i still find brits difficult to play to be honest.

Marek Tucan · Post by **Marek Tucan** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:58 pm

Defeating the Tigers? I can say it is much easier than defeating a force of Pz-IVs bought for the same price. Because the Tigers are much fewer so they can a) cover the frontline, but not each other or b) cover each other, but not the frontline. In a) case, you can take them one-by-one with flanking and infantry and antitank guns, in the latter case you should bypass them and force them to move within the artillery barrage.
The ultimate weapon is .50cal Browning M2HB:) it will suppress and you have even the chance to immobilize the Tiger with it - try to play the "Tragic Stand" scneario to handle the Tigers properly, they were easier to kill than those Pz-IVs and I+ve took out two Tiger Is and one KT by immobilizing them with the 75mm guns and/or .50 machineguns.
I'm now playing two PBEMs with my classmate and his brother... the first one bought quite balanced force but he forgot to check whether he is buying AT tanks, so he now has a lot of Jumbos with 75mm against my T-34s (I keep infantry close to tanks as the escort), the second one bought few Jag- and Koenigstigers and now he is being fried with side shots from my 85mm AAA, 76mm and 57mm ATGs and aircrafts...

Fallschirmjager · Post by **Fallschirmjager** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:21 am

Quanity has a quality all its own

For my money....My tank of choice is the T-34/85 or the M4a3 76 W+

Both are cheap....quick...and in the case of the M4 has a nice .50 cal machine gun for pureeing small vehicles and infantry

If you want to go German....
Id buy Stug's and Marders or even better.....the almighty Nashorn...excellent ranger finder and fire control....put it in a grove of trees or on a reverse slop of a hill...and use it as a sniper tank

Marek Tucan · Post by **Marek Tucan** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:07 pm

Fallschirmjager wrote:Quanity has a quality all its own

For my money....My tank of choice is the T-34/85 or the M4a3 76 W+
....

Similar, only for the Soviets I like also the KV-1S - quite fast for a heavy tank, thick sloped armour, higher gun ROF than the T-34/76
The IS things have poor ROF for me:)
For the German side... Panther and Pz-IV

o4r · Post by **o4r** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:08 pm

TigerOfChaos wrote:Hello everyone,

I've been playing SP:WaW for some time now, as Germany naturally. Battles with the date set so that I can purchase a lot of Konigstigers and Panthers. With maximum battle points set; infinite ammo, but no historic ratings.

My question is, is there any way that such a force can be defeated? The battles are rather one-sided, as no matter what forces the US Army or the Soviets bring, the cats can rip through them without much difficulty. In fact, Infantry gets more kills than their tanks do. Battles are meeting engagements, should give both of us equal purchase points, right?

My question is, how would I go about defeating such a force of German super-tanks?

(I'm slightly wimpy regarding the infinite ammo, as it does help get a lot of artillery strikes in...)

Are you talking about AI (All Idiot) or are you talking about human....

Try us with your all cats.... on line

Irinami · Post by **Irinami** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:37 am

I would agree, take Germany '39. As I said in another thread somewhere...

Use 1200 points and buy:

1 PanzerGrenadier Motorized Company (under Infantry selection), with Opel Blitzen, 37mm PaK ATG's, and 75mm leIG18's.

1 Light Recon Company (under Miscellanious selection), with a 6-Rad commander, GE Motorcycle Squads, and a set of SdKfzw 231 8-Rad's.

1 set of Scouts (2-man teams), and 1 sniper. You should have 1 point left.

Then play with every setting ON except for Command & Control and Reduced Squads.

Upgrade as you see fit. I'd suggest starting in Eastern Europe. This should teach you the basics of combined arms.

AbsntMndedProf · Post by **AbsntMndedProf** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:27 pm

In an GE assault/Allied defend scen, mines can take down a tiger or two. Since they are so slow compared to smaller GE AFVs, they either have to stick to roads to make good progress, or travel overland, which slows them down considerably. A few well placed minefields can force the tigers and kts to take to the woods, so to speak, and allow your forces to ready themselves in hiding, rather than coming out on the roads. Just a thought.

Eric Maietta

AbsntMndedProf · Post by **AbsntMndedProf** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:02 am

Here is an indirect way to deal with Tigers and KTs: make sure the 'vehicle breakdown' and 'weapons breakdown' options are 'on'. Then, when a Tiger or KT breaks down, deal with it as you would a bunker. Or, if its main gun gives up the ghost, it's just a semi-mobile MG bunker with lots of armour. If both happens to one, just ignore it.

Eric Maietta

arethusa · Post by **arethusa** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:20 pm

Several times now I've defeated my PBEM opponent's Tigers in the desert (where their long range 88's are theoretically at their best) while his StuG's and Pz's have been much harder to kill.

The Tigers are much slower than the other tanks, as has been noted previously, and so it's a lot easier to target them with artillery, easier to predict where they're going to be. A couple of turns of 75mm+ arty and he loses control of them due to suppression. I then just keep some 60mm jeeps firing on the Tigers every turn unit I can get something there to deal with them.

They seemed to be suppressed so easily that I could drive up with bazookas on a jeep, Shermans, Wolverine's or even a towed ATG and the Tigers don't even OP-fire. By this time, there's so much dust from the arty that German overwatch isn't a problem either.

I can just sit there and plug away at them until they're done. With the smaller weapons, it seems that the Tiger crews bail easily after the bombardment.