Questions about "Fatigue"

[Burkowski]

Hi, all.

Would someone provide some guidance, please, re: unit fatigue, especially for air units. I have looked through the War Room threads, The FAQ, the manual, and tried a search with "fatigue." Not much help in specific. I understand that fatigue is a representation of cumulative wear and tear on planes, crew, base, resources, etc. It also seems that this works in conjunction with other factors in determining effectiveness. I am uncertain, however, about what the numbers mean and how the veterans of UV use and interpret them. [&:]

#1 question: other than general admonitions about flying every other turn or never more than two turns in a row, is there a threshold number or range of numbers or rule of thumb where you all say, " I have to keep this squadron grounded this turn" or " I know I am going to get my butt kicked because the fatigue # is xx, but I have to protect that convoy...?"

#2 question: are the fatigue numbers for air units and ground units parallel in terms of your interpretation of them?

#3: any other thoughts on the subject?

If this is a repetition, I ask your patience and indulgence.... TNX

Burkowski

[pasternakski]

I don't really know how fatigue works either, Burkowski, and I've been playing this thing ever since it first came out. In any event, to answer your questions:

1. I try to keep both fighters and bombers below 20 fatigue, but, as you point out, there are times when you just have to grin and bear it. Even so, if fatigue is high and morale low and confronted by superior numbers (particularly early in the campaign scenarios when playing as the Allies and the Zero pilots are still fresh and highly experienced), I take the coward's way out and just stay on the ground, pulling my ships back out of harm's way.

2. I think they work similarly, but it doesn't seem to me that the effect is as great with ground units as it is with pilots. Fatigue and morale certainly don't recover as fast.

3. The whole interaction of airplane characteristics and pilot state confuses the he11 out of me. I've given up on trying to understand it and just go with my gut feelings on which planes are better and how rested and enthusiastic pilots have to be.

Not much help, eh?

[mogami]

Fatigue is reduced for units that do not engage in combat in WITP.

[Burkowski]

Thanks, Mogami; sounds as if things may be a bit more accessible in WitP; can't wait....

Thanks, Pasternakski; I, too, have been "gut-feeling" it based on my sense of the game and my own military knowledge; when I think about it in "fog of war" terms, maybe, that's not such a bad thing... intel is part of it, but when deciding what to commit and when, as a commander, it often does come down to the gut, no?

I am glad, in a perverse sort of way, that my unceratinty on this subject is shared by someone else..

Burkowski

[Shadow of the Condor]

As far as the ground forces, all I try to do is keep subordinate units with their HQ if at all possible. Those without a listed HQ I just try to keep in the same theater.

As to the air units, I do try to also keep the fatigue as low as possible...I optimally fly when the fatigue is less that 10, but war tends to redefine the word "optimally". I do have exceptions, and will try to list a few.

First, C-47s. Forget about managing their fatigue. All the pilots do is walk to the planes, and they get 40+ fatigue (from a single mission). They tend to stay there, however - and have proven to be more durable than I initially thought at that high fatigue level.

Second, level bombers. They don't accrue as much fatigue at night, but not as many fly the mission. Pay attention to the Normal vs. Maximum range. It does make a big difference. As always, the closer you are to the target when you take off, the less fatigue you'll suffer (of course, being close has its own drawbacks).

Third, low-level missions will add fatigue rapidly, especially for bombers below 6000 ft.

I rest my pilots as often as I can. In my current bombing raid against Lunga, none of my two engine bombers flew anything more than transferring from base A to base B for almost a month. Flying with 99 morale and 5 fatigue yields some outstanding results.

Exceptions to that would be if I sense an advantage. As an example, say you have pounded an enemy airbase into rubble and have his planes trapped there - keep a minimal strike force bombing the base to offset any repairs being done (genreally this applies vs. IJN engineers, as Allied SeaBees can repair at a very fast rate). Another example is if you need to LRCAP a convoy as it enters or leaves a port with enemy air around. The best case, of course, is plan your convoys to enter enemy contested waters (and airspace) when your fighters are fully rested, but there's that war thing again always upsetting plans [:)]. Is the possible operational loss (and losses to enemy air due to fatigued pilots) offset by saving a 12 VP transport ship? And even then, the ship may still be hit hard despite the best efforts of LRCAP.

On the ground, make sure you keep enough base forces (ENG units with air support personnel) on the ground to service the planes. Remember the operational limit of your bases (1 = 50 planes, 2 = 100 planes, etc.). Disregarding that won't add fatigue, but it will prevent fatigue from reducing.

Finally, I pay more attention to morale rather than fatigue. As an example, I have no problems sending a squadron with 99 morale and 30 fatigue on a mission, but there had better be an emergency (base defense, etc.) before I'll fly a squadron with only 50 morale, but 0 fatigue (other than training flights).

Hope that helps.

[pasternakski]

Excellent points. Concur in all of them.

Morale, though, is a shifting concept with air units. Some types seem to perform pretty well at 50-60 morale and zero or close to zero fatigue (level bombers in particular). Others don't do well no matter what the levels are. Planes assigned to recon, for example, though ordinarily flown by expert pilots, seem to suffer high attrition rates even at max morale and minimum fatigue. The American F-5As seem to suffer severely, followed by the Japanese J1N1s.

So go figure.

[Shadow of the Condor]

originally posted by pasternaski

Excellent points. Concur in all of them.

Morale, though, is a shifting concept with air units. Some types seem to perform pretty well at 50-60 morale and zero or close to zero fatigue (level bombers in particular). Others don't do well no matter what the levels are. Planes assigned to recon, for example, though ordinarily flown by expert pilots, seem to suffer high attrition rates even at max morale and minimum fatigue. The American F-5As seem to suffer severely, followed by the Japanese J1N1s.

So go figure.

True enough about the F5As. When I first started playing, I mistakenly correlated "recon" with "long-range". Not as bad as C-47s, but they do get tired fast. Quite honestly, I get better results with PBYs, and they last longer. F5As have the benefit of almost instant "level 4" intel, but if I get close enough to use them effectively, I'm usually bombing first and taking pictures later. Right now, both my F5A squadrons are at Noumea, and I see no reason to move them.

Getting back to the point of the thread, comments from others are helpful, but nothing can substitute for actual experience. Try a few H2H games with yourself just to get a feel for how fast planes get fatigue. Run a few turns with a bomber squadron going normal and then extended range, high altitude and low altitude, etc. and see the difference. I did that and learned about the C-47 propensity to get tired fast (on a PM to Buna run, no less. 150 lousy miles - amazing).

[sven6345789]

my experiences
1. fighters: keep moral high, cause otherwise they will break off dogfighting after a short while. I keep rotating those guys on a monthly basis, but when they are in action, it's like being an RAF-Pilot in the battle of britain. Boy, those guys must hate me.
2. Bombers: for the japanese, the Bettys and Nells are effective in large numbers. since one or two strikes leave most of them damaged, i rest them until the numbers are back up. by that time, so are moral and fatigue. for the allies, again, rotating is the key. I do this on a monthly basis also.
3.Transports: just let those guys fly unless the number of planes get to low because they have to land on a damaged airfield. I had mine in continous use for 7 months and they performed well enough.
4.Recons: I only use hem when to find out how many ground forces might be best for invasion. otherwise, they drink beer in Brisbane or Noumea.
5.Naval patrol: you can keep that up on a 100% indefinitely, no matter wether the planes are float planes or Hudsons, for example. same is true for ASW-Role (though i set the altitude a little lower)

[CMDRMCTOAST]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Morale, though, is a shifting concept with air units. Some types seem to perform pretty well at 50-60 morale and zero or close to zero fatigue (level bombers in particular).

So go figure.

I had been bombing Gilli Gilli every night in one pbem game with B17'S from
Cooktown for weeks on rotation, a recon Target came up with two
damaged subs in port at woodlark island so I shifted a pair of B17 sqdns to raid
the port hoping to tag them, got 1 hit on a sub.
Well that put my fatigue high and my morale down at 57 so I pulled 1 sqdrn
out to rest at charter towers, after a couple days my fatigue started coming
up and my morale went down to 52.
A transport of ap's was heeding for Gilli Gilli so I transfered the squadron
back to cooktown to pull another port raid on Gilli Gilli and my morale shot up
to 68 just from the transfer.
My question is this, I have several squadrons in Brisbane and Noumea that for weeks
the morale hasn't really budged ( maybe 5 or 10 points ), Do some sqdns have to be near the action to boost morale or are certain units just a pain in the A$$.
1 SQDRN in particular is the Beufighter at Noumea it's fatigue and morale are
tough to manage as after 1 or two combats it has to be sent for tea and tampons
for several weeks to get into fighting shape again.

[bradfordkay]

general observations and questions:

I typically keep squadrons flying unless fatigue exceeds 40%. This seems to put my number of airstrikes on par with the AI, so I have been guessing that is okay. I always rest bombers in Thunderstorm conditions (unless a special op is on), so that is usually when fatige starts to drop, though sometimes I have to do it in better weather just because fatigue has risen too high. I can't picture grounding units merely because fatigue has hit over 10%.

Why ground your F5As? I give them missions nearly every day and they keep plugging along, with relatively low losses. I try to follow a day of long range recon with a day with a much closer target, but I keep them flying. This is probably a hangover from BOB/BOTR where bombing missions were less effective if you hadn't performed a recent recon mission over the target. Does that no longer hold true in UV/WITP?

I have noticed higher operational losses as fatigue climbs, so I do ground any unit whose fatigue exceeds 50% (especially my transports, whose operational losses do seem to climb steadily with their fatigue). I do wonder if crossing the Owens Stanley Mountains has anything to do with increased fatigue?

[Burkowski]

Brad and others....

So, there seems to be a pretty wide divergence of opinion on those "threshold" #s I started this thread asking about... my own experience consists of three complete games and one in progress all vs. AI (Scenarios 1, 17, 15, and 19)... two wins, one loss, one ongoing, so I have a reasonable number of hours logged on UV, and my experience re: fatigue has led me to begin grounding squads when they are in the 20-25 range of fatigue... while framing those decisions with morale #s as well.... and it does have as much to do with operational as well as combat losses.... I, too, would question the 10 figure as being extremely constraining in terms of maintaining regular ops, yet I have regretted "pushing it" when (even) the AI does something unexpected or sinister...
One random, larger question was generated in my mind by the Owen Stanley question... are the game routines the same from scenario to scenario? E.G. if a scenario is largely restricted to the N.G. area or to open ocean, are the fatigue/ morale requirements or routines different? I know about the malaria factor, but others? I'm probably overthinking this, but I appreciate all the feedback as I feel my way through UV and into WitP. [:'(]


Burkowski

[pasternakski]

Your squadron commander's leadership rating seems to have a fairly large effect - I think. I wish that this wasn't all so "ignored" in the game documentation, leaving us to speculate in uncertainty (I prize "speculate in uncertainty" as one of my best efforts at writing gibberish, by the way).