I won't buy this game without a demo. Why?

[jpinard]

Well, here's the perfect example: I got a lot of recommendations 2 years ago to try Strategic Command. I tried the demo, I loved it.

Korsun Pocket was recommended to me as well. Could not try a demo. Bought it and the expansion at the same time. Tried it, and tried it, and didn't like it. That was $80 lost when S&H was factored in.

So let's compare: $30 for a game I played a ton and loved (and knew I would before I bought it). $80 for a game I don't like.

I don't want to be burned again. There's a benefit to demos, especially for wargames...

[madmickey]

Try the red devil over arnhem demo which is the precursor to HTTR. HTTR is a lot better.
http://downloads.ugo.com/details.php/id/2980/

[Mr.Frag]

When you try the demo, make sure you READ the instructions! [:D]

[Adam Parker]

Also if this means anything to you, I don't give my opinions lightly.

This is a very impressive, very easy to assimilate, very operationally and tactically optioned design that focuses squarely on military decision making.

....And 100 men took up defensive positions outside Mook when near first light the message flashed 'objective in danger'. Swinging attention to that sector of the map, sure enough fresh intel revealed 2 grey Wehrmacht infantry units to the east and another moving from the north at a beeline to my men. The speed in approach of the latter could only mean one thing - armor! The "sky men" opened up and the south-bound unit immediately beat a retreat. Probably just a probe with halftracks the paratroopers thought but an enemy cautious enough to fear an Allied elite. Movement from the east froze too. Yet, what now would the enemy bring forth, that contact had been made?....

(An excerpt from play of Tutorial 1 with full order delay - and a Decisive Victory to the Allies).

Adam.
(Writer, Artist, Tester - the other mob)

[Stinger22]

Bingo Adam! I go back to playing wargames on an Atari 800. This is a classic. Up there with Kampgruppe, TOAW and others.

[Tactics]

A demo would be a good idea. I dont know Jpinard, but I've seen him around the gonegold forum. A demo would go a long way to promote sales and entice new players, especially among the more mature cautious types--which he seems to be.

[Arjuna]

We have already explained our reasons for not putting out a demo for HTTR. We have provided an interactive HTTR Tour, which demonstrated the features of HTTR and there are many reviews both professional and from users on which to make a decision. While I appreciate that some people won't buy without one, that is their decision and we respect that. Equally we are focussing our energies and limited resources on developing the next release.

[d95err]

I have some experience of developing demo and limited versions of software products, and it is a lot more work than one would think. You can't just remove some parts of the product, you also need to make sure that you can simply upgrade to the full version by adding some files from a full install, or some simple hack. In addition, there is the added support, testing and maintenance for keeping different product editions.

That said, I would never have bought this game if the RDOA demo hadn't been available. No amount of reviews, forum discussions, interactive tours, movies and screenshots can compare to the taste of the real thing that a demo gives you.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: jpinard

Korsun Pocket was recommended to me as well. Could not try a demo. Bought it and the expansion at the same time. Tried it, and tried it, and didn't like it. That was $80 lost when S&H was factored in.

So let's compare: $30 for a game I played a ton and loved (and knew I would before I bought it). $80 for a game I don't like.

I don't want to be burned again. There's a benefit to demos, especially for wargames...

I'm not sure why you think you've been "burned"... most people think KP is a great game (including, presumably, whoever recommended it to you), and it certainly has none of the dreaded "issues" that afflict many games. You don't like it, fair enough ... but who here HASN'T forked out on a game they didn't really get on with ? With me it's maybe one in three, demos or not.

In this case, the RDoA demo will probably suffice for your purposes.

I'd disagree on the "especially for wargames" bit, too. The "trouble" with decent wargames (and both KP and HttR are), is that they are complex. A demo is fine for a shooter or RTS, but very few habitual downloaders have the time or patience to find out how to play anything more complicated than "point and click".... which is fine until they start posting "this game is crap" everywhere they can.

Sometimes you have to read the reviews (on the game's boards, and wargames sites) and take a chance. Of the two most prolific wargame producers (Matrix and HPS), NEITHER make a habit of demos. That leaves Battlefront, and not a lot else.

[MarkShot]

It's perfectly reasonable for potential customers to want to try a demo of a game.

It's perfectly reasonable for the developer/publisher to think the ROI (return on investment) for producing a demo is not warranted.

Given these two positions, Panther, Matrix, beta testers, and members of the community have endeavored to provide as broad and copious information about the game to prospective buyers as possible.

Certainly, no one is interested in "burning" anyone or pocketing someone's hard earned money under false pretenses. Those involved with the product of have a strong heart felt desire that those who purchase it should get their money's worth and then some.

And, of course, there is still the old RDOA demo floating around on the Net. HTTR is not RDOA, but clearly HTTR is a descendant of RDOA. So, if the RDOA demo tickles your fancy, then you probably will enjoy other games from its lineage.

I think that should be sufficient to make a reasonable informed decision. Sometimes, even after having a game in one's possesion, only time will tell if it becomes a classic that keeps you enthralled for years or if it is just a passing fling. Like everything in life; there are no guarantees.

[Tomus]

TBH I find demos pretty limiting and generally base my opinions on reviews of games. But I also know what I like and what I don't like. And despite demos and stuff there are games I have bought that I have subsquently disliked Far Cry is a good example. Great reviews, great demo, great previews and still I found the game a bit dull and didn't really enjoy it. Regardless of the demo I knew I was going to buy Far Cry just because of the hype and great press it received. I have never been swayed by a demo, all they generally do for me is confirm a purchase I was going to make anyway.

I don't think Demo's are the be all and end all. And for a company like Matrix Games I would rather wait for the reviews than have them waste resources on producing demos when it could be going on expansion packs or new products.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

What we want in a game determines what we think of the game.

I too bought into Strategic Command after seeing the demo like jpinard did.

But the difference for me was, I knew I wanted the game the second I saw the screen shots. Playing the demo used up 5 minutes of my time.

I concluded it wasn't Advanced Third Reich by any stretch of the imagination, but I was clearly sold on how it was basically the sort of wargame I would want.

An interactive tour of SC would have had the same effect. Instant sell.

I have the HTTR game now. Admittedly I was sold 5 minutes into seeing the original demo for Red Devils. That it had a demo proved it could be done. But after looking at the manual that comes with HTTR, it is clear I didn't really see a fraction of what the game really is. It is possible too, that a lot of what is HTTR, wasn't there in Red Devils. But I have no idea how much was new.

Bottom line though, I think a gamer that won't like Korsun, will likely not like HTTR.
Why?
Because both games are not low complexity games.

I don't have Korsun, its just economics. Korsun was in competition with HTTR the day I bought HTTR. It was a narrow margin of difference. I decided I wanted to look into the game system for HTTR.

But, both games will not reward the player that thinks he is so good he couldn't possibly need to completely read the manual and then play the tutorials.

If you fail to read the manual and play the tutorials, you deserve to be disappointed and should be disappointed.

SC was so straight forward obvious, that I think it has raised the bar on how to make a blindingly straight forward beer and pretzels wargame.

HTTR is NOT a beer and pretzels wargame. And that is just the way it is.

I have The Operational Art of War Century of Warfare. I can assure you, when a new wargamer asks for titles for getting into wargaming, it is never on the list. Its a grognards wargame.
Thus, buying it, demo or otherwise, SHOULD disappoint a casual wargamer.

Because not all wargames are going to be Panzer General or Strategic Command.

And I like it that way.

I am still studying my manual for HTTR. I am in no rush. I expect it to be a total experience.

I didn't spend any time at all studying SC. Wasn't needed. I only needed to delve into the guts of the game when I am playing one of the better human opponents, and a standard level effort is not going to cut it.

The basic truth of some wargames, is they are made for diehard wargamers.

I would for instance jpinard, caution you against playing anything sold by John Tiller. He only makes wargames for grognards.
I have 4, and they are great. 3 Panzer Campaigns titles, and one Squad battles.
I doubt a demo would be of use for them either. I don't believe there are demos for them (never seen one).

I hope jpinard I have not sounded elitist, but sometimes it is better to hear it straight out from someone like this.
You either like this sort of game, or none of this sort of game will ever fly with you.

That Korsun is called one of the best wargames ever made, is a hard statement to refute.

I have played the Ardennes scenario that is bundled in with it. I am inclined to think Korsun has earned its praise.

[Mr.Frag]

Nicely put Sarge.

The biggest reality in HTTR is that there is no skill level setting. That pretty much tells you that stupid play will be punished according to an appropriate level of abuse.

Just waiting here for that Strategy Guide to open my eyes to all that I am missing right now. I know it is tons of stuff.

HTTR is one of a very few games I have ever owned that has NEVER been off my hard drive. I have hundreds of games, less then 10 occupy space on my system. Most are played and forgotten.

[Fallschirmjager]

Try the RDOA demo mentioned earlier. If you do not like that, you will not like HTTR. If you do like it, HTTR is even better.
Its as simple as that.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

What some might have missed, is the Red Devils demo, is it still even out there?

I have it myself, but thats just me, and that ain't going to help anyone else out there (unless they ask to get it from me eh).

So the question is, does anyone know of any location that is still leaving it out for download.

I got it from Battlefront, but they no longer have it there (which is not unusual I guess).

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

What some might have missed, is the Red Devils demo, is it still even out there?

I have it myself, but thats just me, and that ain't going to help anyone else out there (unless they ask to get it from me eh).

So the question is, does anyone know of any location that is still leaving it out for download.

I got it from Battlefront, but they no longer have it there (which is not unusual I guess).

Look at the second post in this thread sarge.

[MarkShot]

Granted there are no skill level settings. However, you can increase your own level of resupply and reinforcements while correspondingly decreasing the enemy's. I think that alone should have a very significant impact on how many of the scenarios play out.

Actually, I have to confess that I've never messed with them; either harder or easier. I just always take the defaults.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Thanks for the link Fallschirmjager

I also found some other good demos in there to add to my stash.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Ok all that glitters ain't gold hehe. After looking and then looking and looking some more.

Scooped up the Close Combat 2 A Bridge too Far Demo and the Close Combat 5 Invasion Normandy demo to add to my demo stash (the one I routinely offer with my Steel Panthers cd).
Both have just a single battle. But the Normandy one gave me the itch to think about getting the others (I own CC2).

Also was able to see the demo for Massive Assault (but the game is not my sort of game).

But that was about all I found that was a wargamer of my ilk's sort of wargame.

[Guz]

How many games have a nearly universal thumbs up from everyone? Not many. Buy the game and if You hate it by all means post here about it. You'll be the first.