Crew-served weapons - too hard to hit!

[jungelsj_slith]

In terms of hit percentages and damage, why do crew served weapons operate as an infantry squad?

More specifically - AT guns are hard as hell to hit! It seems strange to me that my tanks can hit other vehicles (hard or soft) very consistently, round after round on target - but point them at an AT gun at the same distance, and you're in trouble.

I think it's fine that the AT guns are hard to spot. However, in terms of size, they're not necessarily all that much smaller than certain vehicles - you'd expect a tank to be able to actually hit the gun itself within a couple of shots. Not so - the crew served weapons are like an infantry squad who happen to have an AT gun as one of their weapons. (That's what it "feels" like, anyway)

Casualties within the crew should certainly be treated like infantry - but the actual guns should be able to be taken out much more quickly. Think of the Close Combat series - if your AT guns are spotted by a tank, you're in trouble. A couple of shots is usually all it takes to score a direct hit to the gun and send the crew running. (granted, the distances are much different, but even from one hex away, AT guns take 5 or 6 shots from HE cannon and MG's to kill a few guys.)

Sorry for the rant. I just witnessed a turn where 8 PZIII's and 4 PZII's spent all of their shots at an AT gun around 10 hexes away and killed a single crewman. The next round, the gun was fine and it took out a couple of my tanks

EDIT - sorry if this was in the wrong forum. I thought I was in general.

[Major Destruction]

In earlier versions of the game AT Guns were much easier to kill. This annoyed players.

[jungelsj_slith]

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

In earlier versions of the game AT Guns were much easier to kill. This annoyed players.

In later versions of the game AT Guns were very hard to kill. This annoyed players.

[Toivo]

I agree with molotv_billy on this. Historical (if you read Panzer Aces for exsample), knocking out ATGs with crew in single hit wasn't too rare.
There are many historical things which annoy some players...

[jungelsj_slith]

I think the strength of the AT guns is that they're easily concealable. If they WERE easier to take out, it wouldnt bother me, knowing that I would at least get a couple of shots off at a tank with each AT gun before I was spotted. (which happens now. In fact, you can get ALOT of shots off before being spotted) Even with one tank kill, you have the points advantage in that AT guns are much cheaper than tanks.

The period of 40 to 45 was probably the most "balanced" form of warfare in this century - absolutely every type of arms was necessary to achieve victory. I guess I just dont understand why AT guns were (historically speaking) incredibly useful and very necessary, while in this game they need to be given advantages in order to be useful. What isnt being modeled in the game that makes it necessary to treat AT guns like an infantry squad (spread out), in cover, with a gun that isnt destroyable by tank rounds? (or any rounds, really)

[Mangudai]

I agree that the gun itself should be a bit easier to hit. 88s and 90mm AA are damn near impossible to get rid of. I'm in a game right now where my exposed 90mm has been shot at a bizzilion times from long range with lots of 2cm flak, mortars, HE and MG fire from tanks etc. It's down to 1/3 of its crew, but they still rally up and kill any vehicles in sight. The only effective way to kill them is to get in close with rifles, which a good player will not let happen.

[VikingNo2]

smoke[;)]

[Maciste]

Air Strikes?
Counter-battery artillery fire?
And, if attacking... pin it down and then roll over it with your tanks

[Mangudai]

Smoke clears after a few turns, you have to keep doing it over and over. Besides, it doesn't kill the gun, he can just move it.

I forgot about air strikes, those do the job.

[Poopyhead]

If the game treats ATG's as infantry, then attack them as if they were infantry. In HotM, I target any 88's with three or more 107 mm mortar squads in one turn. That's over a dozen rounds near the crew. The crew rout off the map and the gun becomes a terrain feature.

[VikingNo2]

Let me explain buy what I meant by smoke, smoke in front of the gun once it has benn located then time a mortar hit at the end of your opponents turn then close in with infanty, and waste the gun, you can use a CS tank or light tank as well.

Every tactic can be countered however so be ready for little suprizes[;)]

[FNG]

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2
Every tactic can be countered however so be ready for little suprizes[;)]

Mine your gun positions
Really slows down those over-running tanks.

[jungelsj_slith]

I guess I really wasnt talking about gameplay balance - as I'm sure after so many years of development, things are very well balanced. I'm sure there are a bunch of good ways to counter AT guns, and thank you for posting them..

However, what I was really trying to get at is more of a believability issue.. with a game such as Steel Panthers, imagining yourself in the shoes of a real commander on the battlefield is very important. Every time I have ever become bored with Steel Panthers is when I lose that imagination and realize that I'm just pushing graphical icons around on hexes. I need to believe that things such as anti-tank guns perform in SP in relatively the same way that they would perform in real life.

So when I see my dozen (literally) tanks expend all of their shots for the round at a single gun, and only see on crew casualty, I am definately taken out of the experience. Something like that just isn't plausible to me, when at the same time if those shots had been aimed at a vehicle the same size as an AT gun (say, a Jeep), 80-90% of the shots would have pegged the vehicle. That's very frustrating to me.

[MOTHER]

AT Gunnery is an art in real life.
A trained crew let alone an expierenced crew is a deadly foe;these things are usually "static objects" hiding in a 50 meter sq. hex along with supporting infustructure,ammo box for example[and they dont put those "next to" the gun!].
Just because they fire when they are percieved static, doesnt mean they are;bocage to cellar to stone wall to defilade to orchard can easily be achieved in a 50 meter area.
give em a bit of credit.,hell this is ww2 tanks/crew have to spot,stop,adjust/track and then fire all in a tin box![X(].

[KG Erwin]

For ATGs--smoke 'em and kill them with infantry. They will die once a few hand grenades are stuffed down their throats--guns and crews alike. Same goes for MGs, ATR units and mortar sections/platoons--I hate these buggers, and love to kill them with high explosives or flame. Swatting flies with sledgehammers? You bet. It's the American way--overwhelming firepower saves your troops' lives, and I firmly believe in this.

[Major Destruction]

From "A Time For Trumpets"

A U.S. anti-tank gun opened fire. The first round hit the flak tank, but it kept moving. A second round hit the second vehicle, immobilizing it. Bypassing the immobilized tank, the driver of Wortmann's flak tank continued to advance. Although the anti-tank gun fired a third time it missed Wortmann's vehicle. Wortmann could see that the gun was firing from a barn concealed by a hedge. Taking aim with his 37mm piece, he knocked it out with one round.

Seems to me that SPWAW does not model this accurately.

[jungelsj_slith]

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

From "A Time For Trumpets"

A U.S. anti-tank gun opened fire. The first round hit the flak tank, but it kept moving. A second round hit the second vehicle, immobilizing it. Bypassing the immobilized tank, the driver of Wortmann's flak tank continued to advance. Although the anti-tank gun fired a third time it missed Wortmann's vehicle. Wortmann could see that the gun was firing from a barn concealed by a hedge. Taking aim with his 37mm piece, he knocked it out with one round.

Seems to me that SPWAW does not model this accurately.

Exactly right! I think that bit points out perfectly what the gun's strengths should be - much much easier to conceal than a tank, but once its spotted..!

In the game, you have to kill every crewman before the gun is "destroyed" - forgive me if I'm wrong, but is there ever an instance where you can destroy the gun and the crew "bails out"?