Wait a minute!

[Huskalator]

From Luskan and Frag's AAR

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Been farting around with Japan AI, no AI surprises by late June 42. The Dutch East Indies is still predominantly Dutch (entire Malay Barrier), Wake is US, Burma is Allied from Mandalay north, I've used US CVs for one raid on Kwajalein in Jan 42 (have been swinging at anchor since!). My point...I need more PBEM opponents!

This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Deep Breakfast

From Luskan and Frag's AAR

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Been farting around with Japan AI, no AI surprises by late June 42. The Dutch East Indies is still predominantly Dutch (entire Malay Barrier), Wake is US, Burma is Allied from Mandalay north, I've used US CVs for one raid on Kwajalein in Jan 42 (have been swinging at anchor since!). My point...I need more PBEM opponents!

This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

Yea I was worried when I read this too. This doesnt sound good at all. It is one thing if the allied AI sucks but if the Japanese AI doesnt do anything early then forget it.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Deep Breakfast

From Luskan and Frag's AAR

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Been farting around with Japan AI, no AI surprises by late June 42. The Dutch East Indies is still predominantly Dutch (entire Malay Barrier), Wake is US, Burma is Allied from Mandalay north, I've used US CVs for one raid on Kwajalein in Jan 42 (have been swinging at anchor since!). My point...I need more PBEM opponents!

This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

We've had mixed reports on the Japanese AI. Some runs have the AI running wild, others have it "incomplete", not anything close to the complete defensive line.

Believe me the AI is going to be my #1 scrutiny. Turn based wargame AI's have been a MAJOR pet peeve of mine, and one I intend to address in a major way in my own efforts in the coming years. Bottom line, in the genre of turn based wargames, the AI's are no more sophisticated, in a strategic sense, than they were in 1984. And that is a flat out CRIME.

[dpstafford]

ORIGINAL: Deep Breakfast
This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

My take on this is the exact opposite of yours. Given a nearly perfect PBEM system, and hundreds of opponents to choose from, why would anybody want to waste valuable time carpet bombing a computer opponent? I played UV against the computer for maybe a week before the boredom overwhelmed me. Once I started playing by e-mail, I was in heaven! I may not spend a single hour playing WITP against the AI. You can blunt your fears of an opponent dropping on you by playing in more than one game. I have had as many as 10 PBEM UV games going at once (and still have 4 going). There is no computer game IN THE WORLD as complex as WITP that can provide the kind of AI competition you seek. Matrix is wise to concentrate their efforts on PBEM and bugs in general. I personally wouldn't care if WITP was "shipped" without ANY AI. So call me super-grog if you want to (I've been called worse, right here in this forum)!

[a1steaks]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Deep Breakfast

From Luskan and Frag's AAR

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Been farting around with Japan AI, no AI surprises by late June 42. The Dutch East Indies is still predominantly Dutch (entire Malay Barrier), Wake is US, Burma is Allied from Mandalay north, I've used US CVs for one raid on Kwajalein in Jan 42 (have been swinging at anchor since!). My point...I need more PBEM opponents!

This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

We've had mixed reports on the Japanese AI. Some runs have the AI running wild, others have it "incomplete", not anything close to the complete defensive line.

Believe me the AI is going to be my #1 scrutiny. Turn based wargame AI's have been a MAJOR pet peeve of mine, and one I intend to address in a major way in my own efforts in the coming years. Bottom line, in the genre of turn based wargames, the AI's are no more sophisticated, in a strategic sense, than they were in 1984. And that is a flat out CRIME.

Zoomie, what do you plan on working on? I'm a game AI programmer by trade, and your comment caught my eye. I'd be interested to hear what you have planned, that is if it's not top-secret!

[freeboy]

evidently there are ways in the game, not the editor, to make the computer player better.. see screenshots of the game.. not on forum. So look at the origonal post.. what level was this person playing at?

[MCKClaudi]

I really hope the ai doesn't suck, that would be a gamekiller for me. Its a shame it doesn't get as much attention as pbem does. A great ai would imo help sell this game to a more non grognard crowd.

Maybe Matrixgames should consider hiring a dedicated ai programmer to help on all their projects.

[2Stepper]

ORIGINAL: MCKClaudi

I really hope the ai doesn't suck, that would be a gamekiller for me. Its a shame it doesn't get as much attention as pbem does. A great ai would imo help sell this game to a more non grognard crowd.

Maybe Matrixgames should consider hiring a dedicated ai programmer to help on all their projects.

Guys, guys... Granted, opinions are like *****'s and everyone has one, but I gotta say speaking for MY particular opinion? I have to believe that the AI in WiTP had to have passed the "acid test" with the programmers, otherwise we'd still be sitting on our perspective laurels for weeks and weeks waiting on a release of the game. Admittedly the AI in wargames waxes and wanes depending on how it's run from the start, but just like other more respectable games in this genre? When the game DOES come out to buy and I know it will... I plan to offer up all the help to Matrix that I can to make it a GREAT game. Sure we'll mostly have PBEM buddies soon into the learning curve and all, but we shouldn't neglect the AI either...

My suggestion to Matrix IF/WHEN any issues come up with AI? Set aside a section of the forum called "AI IMPROVEMENT PROJECT". That way developmentally it can be improved somewhat.

Besides, there's one other thing of interest in the point being made in this thread about AI's that wasn't addressed. What was the difficulty being played? May not be the best of examples but I've played UV on the EASY level and could beat the AI with one hand tied behind my back... It's all relative... I'd jus say to the matrix lads, there's plenty of people in this forum that are really stoked about this game and while some may grouse and grumble about things?

Most of us want to see the best game on the planet, and I for one am willing to do what I can to help make that happen. [8D]

Slightly cheesy "kiss-up" to Matrix, I know, but you know what? It's also an honest one. [8D]

[Jonny_B]

[:D][:D][:D][:D][font="Times New Roman"][/font]

Mr. dpstafford:


How about a dirty rotten Buckeye Fan.
I am a Miami Hurricane Fan, and I still remember the call.

Just kidding, good game, until next time.

[Ron Saueracker]

The fact that I'm the greatest military genius ever (since Mogami) should worry you as a potential PBEM opponent![:D] Muuuwhahahahaaaa!!!!!!

As everyone says, SRA is vital, and due to various tweaks through development, the AI has suffered in this test game as a result. The allied subs were uber for awile so lots of APs and ground units sank at sea. Put the AI back so Japan AI has been using CVs chopping up allied air units in SRA softening up for final push. The fact that I did not use USN carriers was in SRA as they were not historically. The reason I kept the game going was to check on refits and their proper behaviour.

Game was restarted again long since and AI doing much better. It was just a comment in relation to Nik's nasty surprise in PacWar. Did not mean to scare anyone![X(]

But the lack of PBEM tester opponents amuses me. Taunt, taunt! I would suck as IJ right now as this is a huge challenge (only dabbled with it up to now ) but I'm very familiar with Allies.

[2Stepper]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I would suck as IJ right now as this is a huge challenge (only dabbled with it up to now ) but I'm very familiar with Allies.

This kinda interests me Ron, as you've obviously tested the game and like the rest of us are probably a history nut... Don't you feel that you know most of the moves the Japanese made? Thus could either reaccomplish them all or at least do the ones that made sense and avoid those that didn't? That's basically the approach I plan to use when playing the Japanese. Granted, I know they're a lot more complex then the allies to play due to the higher workload... i.e., the production/research, etc... Just wondering what your thought was on that.

I for one plan to do some playing against the AI... Probably into mid 1943 at least in a full game... See if I can kill off that learning curve, then I'll be ALL OUT for PBEM opponents. [8D] Sure hope they get DigitalRiver up and stylin by middle of next week. Cause I REALLY have an itch for this game. [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I would suck as IJ right now as this is a huge challenge (only dabbled with it up to now ) but I'm very familiar with Allies.

This kinda interests me Ron, as you've obviously tested the game and like the rest of us are probably a history nut... Don't you feel that you know most of the moves the Japanese made? Thus could either reaccomplish them all or at least do the ones that made sense and avoid those that didn't? That's basically the approach I plan to use when playing the Japanese. Granted, I know they're a lot more complex then the allies to play due to the higher workload... i.e., the production/research, etc... Just wondering what your thought was on that.

I for one plan to do some playing against the AI... Probably into mid 1943 at least in a full game... See if I can kill off that learning curve, then I'll be ALL OUT for PBEM opponents. [8D] Sure hope they get DigitalRiver up and stylin by middle of next week. Cause I REALLY have an itch for this game. [:D]

Wow, one little comment comparing a PacWar AI move to my experience and all hell breaks loose! [X(][:D] Gotta watch what you say around here as you guys are a tough crowd. Can't make any comments without including all details and proper context or a new thread is started. Should have called this thread "Panic Button."[:D]

I know most of the moves etc, sure, but I neglected the Japanese somewhat as I did the Allied side of ship database and refits and just looking at the dbase gets hard on the eye after awhile. It has been easier for me to catch problems in a game setting, and more fun. That and Mogami has the Japan side of things more than well covered and was taking on at least half the testers simultaneously! He is one serious samurai.

As for the AI, I like to familiarize myself with the game by playing against it and it can provide an entertaining experience for a quite awhile. But no AI in the world right now could handle the sheer volume of units, possible moves, countermoves etc that WITP is so rich in. There are just so many possibilities that it would be unfair to expect any AI to outperform an actual player. Just not possible I don't think. I like fencing with a human adversary by a long shot, as this is where this game (and UV) excell like no other I've played.

[2Stepper]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Wow, one little comment comparing a PacWar AI move to my experience and all hell breaks loose! [X(][:D] Gotta watch what you say around here as you guys are a tough crowd. Can't make any comments without including all details and proper context or a new thread is started. Should have called this thread "Panic Button."[:D]

I know most of the moves etc, sure, but I neglected the Japanese somewhat as I did the Allied side of ship database and refits and just looking at the dbase gets hard on the eye after awhile. It has been easier for me to catch problems in a game setting, and more fun. That and Mogami has the Japan side of things more than well covered and was taking on at least half the testers simultaneously! He is one serious samurai.

As for the AI, I like to familiarize myself with the game by playing against it and it can provide an entertaining experience for a quite awhile. But no AI in the world right now could handle the sheer volume of units, possible moves, countermoves etc that WITP is so rich in. There are just so many possibilities that it would be unfair to expect any AI to outperform an actual player. Just not possible I don't think. I like fencing with a human adversary by a long shot, as this is where this game (and UV) excell like no other I've played.

Nah, wasn't meant to dog you or the games potential Ron. Just making convo amigo. [8D]

[Ron Saueracker]

You did not dog me or the game at all 2Stepper. No worries there. Just wanted to clarify the context of my statement for the other guys.

[MCKClaudi]

Hey, we all want this damn game sooner rather than later. Some of us just prefere playing againts the 'programmed opponent' for lack of skill or time.

And now it seems we will have to wait till monday[:(]...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

ORIGINAL: Deep Breakfast
This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

My take on this is the exact opposite of yours. Given a nearly perfect PBEM system, and hundreds of opponents to choose from, why would anybody want to waste valuable time carpet bombing a computer opponent? I played UV against the computer for maybe a week before the boredom overwhelmed me. Once I started playing by e-mail, I was in heaven! I may not spend a single hour playing WITP against the AI. You can blunt your fears of an opponent dropping on you by playing in more than one game. I have had as many as 10 PBEM UV games going at once (and still have 4 going). There is no computer game IN THE WORLD as complex as WITP that can provide the kind of AI competition you seek. Matrix is wise to concentrate their efforts on PBEM and bugs in general. I personally wouldn't care if WITP was "shipped" without ANY AI. So call me super-grog if you want to (I've been called worse, right here in this forum)!

You're either a multi-player type (PBEM in this case) or a solitaire type. I'm defintely the latter. I'm not the former because I fear my opponent dropping the game or taking too long, but for me irritating my opponents. I have a fiarly busy life and I can't always be very prompt in playing a game. While the tactical, combat resolution parts of AI's are pretty good, i.e. you get a pretty good, realistic spread of results each time through, like the PH attack, the strategic side usually flat out STINKS and hasn't gotten any better in 20 years of game development. I often end up just playing myself, or playing Japan through late 42, then switch sides.....

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

ORIGINAL: MCKClaudi

I really hope the ai doesn't suck, that would be a gamekiller for me. Its a shame it doesn't get as much attention as pbem does. A great ai would imo help sell this game to a more non grognard crowd.

Maybe Matrixgames should consider hiring a dedicated ai programmer to help on all their projects.

Guys, guys... Granted, opinions are like *****'s and everyone has one, but I gotta say speaking for MY particular opinion? I have to believe that the AI in WiTP had to have passed the "acid test" with the programmers, otherwise we'd still be sitting on our perspective laurels for weeks and weeks waiting on a release of the game. Admittedly the AI in wargames waxes and wanes depending on how it's run from the start, but just like other more respectable games in this genre? When the game DOES come out to buy and I know it will... I plan to offer up all the help to Matrix that I can to make it a GREAT game. Sure we'll mostly have PBEM buddies soon into the learning curve and all, but we shouldn't neglect the AI either...

My suggestion to Matrix IF/WHEN any issues come up with AI? Set aside a section of the forum called "AI IMPROVEMENT PROJECT". That way developmentally it can be improved somewhat.

Besides, there's one other thing of interest in the point being made in this thread about AI's that wasn't addressed. What was the difficulty being played? May not be the best of examples but I've played UV on the EASY level and could beat the AI with one hand tied behind my back... It's all relative... I'd jus say to the matrix lads, there's plenty of people in this forum that are really stoked about this game and while some may grouse and grumble about things?

Most of us want to see the best game on the planet, and I for one am willing to do what I can to help make that happen. [8D]

Slightly cheesy "kiss-up" to Matrix, I know, but you know what? It's also an honest one. [8D]

The problem with using difficulty levels is all they do is give the computer better stuff, more stuff, bombs do more damage and troops kill more of your guys. If the AI gets confused somewhere, it gets confused at the same place at ALL difficulty levels. It's not like it plays more aggressively at higher levels or suddenly discovers the concept of a feint and such. I think that's what some want in an AI. An AI that plays "better" at higher levels not just has more effective weapons.... And that's a MAJOR technological challenge for a game as complex as WitP or even UV.

As for this one, my expectations are that the Japanese AI at the VERY LEAST does everything it can to establish it's historic defensive line perimeter. If it leaves gaps (like PACWAR in the East Indies and New Guinea) I'll be dissappointed. And for the American AI, I would hope that if the Japanese player does something stupid, like some of the these suicide missions some have talked about the AI is smart enough to make that Japan player pay for it and is smart enough to attack a position with at least 2 or 3-1 odds regardless of how many Japanese troops are defending (or bypass the place altogether if ridiculously over-defended). Stuff like that. If not, I will just lump this game in with all the others in terms of lousy AI. But my expectations in this area are pretty low, so who knows?

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

ORIGINAL: Deep Breakfast
This worries me a lot. What I am taking from this statement is that the AI sucks. This kinda changes things. I don't have time to spend one year plus playing a PBEM game with someone who could drop out at any moment. I don't mind puting some time into a good wargame but I have a life to live as well.

I wasn't expecting military genius level but at least something to give me a challenge. Does Matrix expect this to appeal to anyone outside the super-grog crowd?

My take on this is the exact opposite of yours. Given a nearly perfect PBEM system, and hundreds of opponents to choose from, why would anybody want to waste valuable time carpet bombing a computer opponent? I played UV against the computer for maybe a week before the boredom overwhelmed me. Once I started playing by e-mail, I was in heaven! I may not spend a single hour playing WITP against the AI. You can blunt your fears of an opponent dropping on you by playing in more than one game. I have had as many as 10 PBEM UV games going at once (and still have 4 going). There is no computer game IN THE WORLD as complex as WITP that can provide the kind of AI competition you seek. Matrix is wise to concentrate their efforts on PBEM and bugs in general. I personally wouldn't care if WITP was "shipped" without ANY AI. So call me super-grog if you want to (I've been called worse, right here in this forum)!

Exactly!

[Mr.Frag]

The problem with using difficulty levels is all they do is give the computer better stuff, more stuff, bombs do more damage and troops kill more of your guys. If the AI gets confused somewhere, it gets confused at the same place at ALL difficulty levels. It's not like it plays more aggressively at higher levels or suddenly discovers the concept of a feint and such. I think that's what some want in an AI. An AI that plays "better" at higher levels not just has more effective weapons.... And that's a MAJOR technological challenge for a game as complex as WitP or even UV.

Zoomie, please stop spouting off about stuff you know nothing about. It really gets rather annoying reading through your constant misinformation about the game. You seem to base all your wild guesses at stuff based on how YOU would code something, not on how it happened to be coded by someone who actually worked on the coding.

The are no magical weapons that get strapped on aircraft and ships when you change the difficulty level. The game does not suddenly strap on SM2er's on all their ships with SPY-1 radar systems. Planes don't suddenly sprout AIM-120's.

Perhaps when you actually produce something, we can have some fun inventing stuff to say about your product that has no basis in fact, but yuo have to produce something first [:D]

[The Gnome]

My take on this is the exact opposite of yours. Given a nearly perfect PBEM system, and hundreds of opponents to choose from, why would anybody want to waste valuable time carpet bombing a computer opponent?

Now this is the one thing that annoys the &*&^*&^ out of me on this board. SOME OF US DO NOT LIKE PLAY BY EMAIL. Yes. I know the caps are shouting and I was.

Let me write that again: Some of us do not like PBEM! I'm not going to get into why as you aren't going to change my mind and I find it really irritating when people try to do so.

If you include AI as part of the game then you bloody better be prepared to make it as challenging as possible given the budget. "Just play a human opponent" is not a valid response when someone has a criticism or suggestion for AI play. Sorry but you really hit a sore spot for me.