Lack of Views

JNOV · Post by **JNOV** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:51 am

I bought, downloaded, and played Starshatter today. It is interesting, and I'd like to get into it. There's one big problem for me, though. There are no cockpit views. It seems like the author went to great lengths to make fighter combat like post-modern jet combat, and yet, no views. I can't possibly dogfight without straight up and 45-degree up views, at an absolute minimum (the rest are really necessary, too).

I read the bit about view-slewing working only in virtual cockpit mode and that that hadn't been enabled, I gather due to lack of actual cockpits. I don't see why, however, you cannot simply allow the view to arbitrarily rotate while fixed in the "space" that is the current cockpit. I'd recommend using something like Aces High's (the absolute best) view scheme, or even IL-2's. Basically, you assign the outer 8 keypad keys to front, front/right, right, rear/right, rear, rear/left, left, front/left views. The keypad 5 key provides a 45-degree up modifier and, if pressed by itself, provides a straight up view. The keypad 0 key provides a 45-degree down modifier and, if pressed by itself, a straight down view. (Note: Using the keypad keys to control views in this fashion is an infintely better solution that using four keys to slew them.) In my mind (and the mind of anyone I know who has ever spent any serious time with a flight simulator), this sort of view functionality is simply not negotiable--it is a must (TrackIR support would be fantastic, but I know that's asking too much). Dogfighting is all about energy and angles management and having keen situational awareness is simply a must. If you can't see, you can't fight. (It's not just fighting, either. Not being able to turn your head to see when to turn from a base leg to the final approach to a landing strip or a hangar is painful, to say the least.)

I strongly suggest implementing the virtual cockpit without the cockpit graphics. You could show the HUD in the front view, and when the other views are displayed, you could indicate the lateral and vertical displacement with some simple text of mini-HUD. Sure, it would be better with the cockpit graphics, but don't let their lack cripple the game.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I don't mean to. The game seems excellent; I'm just frustrated because I cannot play it in its current state.

Best regards,

JNOV

TheDeadlyShoe · Post by **TheDeadlyShoe** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:44 am

I was of the impression that the virtual cockpit mode was still enabled... though I just tested it and it appears not...darn.

Think only Milo can really comment on this one; thus I will just boost my post count.

<BrerRabbit> you have to be the iron mallet of reason
<@Quixzlizx> right now he's being the "stupid comedian" of reason

Andy M · Post by **Andy M** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:31 am

yes, a virtual cockpit is definitely needed, even if it doesn't have any special cockpit graphics (maybe someone else could mod those in later if possible!).

stv · Post by **stv** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:02 pm

Yes I'll put in a vote for some more views. A simple view that will allow me to use my hatswitch to view would be great. My HUD doesn't need to be active in these other views. As it stands I have been switching to the F3 view to maintain my situational awareness.

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:48 pm

Worth a punt, I think, as I havn't seen an answer to this yet. Why were they taken out ? Even the keyboard commands are still listed.

Unlike JNOV it's not stopping me playing, but even simple views left and right (I'm not bothered about fancy cockpit graphics) would really improve gameplay.

Incendiary Lemon · Post by **Incendiary Lemon** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:54 pm

Milo's answer, from a thread at Quarter to Three.

"At one point I was planning on having 3D cockpits for every user playable ship. Then I realized how much work that would be! It is still a possibility for a future expansion, but it's going to take me some time to build up all the artwork for all the fighters and starship bridges as well."

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:38 am

Not really... it's not 3D cockpits (which would be cool, but can wait), it's just the simple ability to look around for situational awareness purposes. As I said, the key commands are still there !

John DiCamillo · Post by **John DiCamillo** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:27 am

The key commands only work in conjunction with the virtual cockpit view mode. There's head-turning physics and all that stuff.

sauron1 · Post by **sauron1** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:01 am

Rotating the view with the joy/pad hat would be very helpful. No need for cockpits - you've done more than enough work already, milo.

Anyway, this is a minor quibble - the game is awesome. Best space sim in years. [:)]

John DiCamillo · Post by **John DiCamillo** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:38 am

I'm trying to visualize this. What would the HUD do if you "looked left" while in normal F1 bridge cam? Just disappear? Go to something like the F3 orbit cam tactial HUD?

TheDeadlyShoe · Post by **TheDeadlyShoe** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:44 am

I think he means just some basic information (weapons?) plus how far away from straight-ahead you are viewing.

Like you are flying a fighter and wearing a helmet, and most of the HUD data is on a, uh, HUD in front of you, so you arn't seeing it when you look around, but you still have some basicinformation projected on the inside of your helmet.

I think?

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:58 am

ORIGINAL: John DiCamillo

I'm trying to visualize this. What would the HUD do if you "looked left" while in normal F1 bridge cam? Just disappear? Go to something like the F3 orbit cam tactial HUD?

I'm guess just disappear, based on the description.

Augurin · Post by **Augurin** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:29 am

I agree about the views. I hate to jump to outside views when I'm fighting, because it breaks the immersion.

The HUD could disapear, or it could just stay and the velocity vector could be absent to indicate you aren't looking in the direction of travel. To avoid some of the hassle with "finding" the front view (and to be simpler), you could implement "snap" views where the view simply looks in the chosen direction more or less instantly. Either make it so that the view only stays in that direction while you hold down the key or implement a "look back to the front" view.

As a minimum, a right, left, back and 45 degree up view is really needed. An eight-way "pie slice" view with the 45 would be great. I know the snap views without graphics are kind of hokey, but it worked in Elite [:)]

I'd love to see a fully scrollable virtual view, but that would be gravy.

BTW, I love the game so far.

TexMurphy · Post by **TexMurphy** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:22 am

I also agree that the views are needed.

The way I would use them is if I need to target something in a huge crowd and I know its of my port side. Then Id just look to the port side and the "use target in view" button.

To me situation awarness comes from reading the radar so I do know where ships are. But to be able to target the right ship fast enough, thats another issue. Scrolling through 20 targets in a big fight is a pain.

Tex

John DiCamillo · Post by **John DiCamillo** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:30 pm

Tex -

Bit of a problem there. Turning your head will not affect the target lock behavior. Lock target in view really means "lock target closest to sensor boresight".

EDIT:

Anyway, I added this. I tried doing the snap views, but I didn't like it as much as the scrolling virtual view, so I went with the smooth-scrolling option. The center reticule will disappear when you are not looking straight ahead. The top center of the view screen that normally shows things like "Orbit Cam" or "Chase Cam" will now say things like "Left" or "Right-Aft" to indicate which way you have your virtual noggin pointed.

There are some odd side effects - like seeing your weapons appear from nowhere and your nav lights flashing in empty space - but on the whole it seems to be working. The default keyboard binding for slewing the view is still Shift+Arrow keys. You can map this to a joystick hat switch if you have one available on your HOTAS controller. Remember that the default mapping uses the hat switch for lateral thrusters.

TexMurphy · Post by **TexMurphy** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:02 pm

Makes sence milo...

About the flashing nav lights... you got em already in the F1 view...

I got a carrier with the bridge quite high up to the right and nav lights in the front of the ship... these just flash in space...

What Id like to see is that the model "around you" is shown when in F1 mode at least there beeing a toggle for it...

When you have a long 1600 meter carrier with the brige just say 100 meters above the top and all the way back you should see the carrier bellow you.

Tex

John DiCamillo · Post by **John DiCamillo** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:41 pm

For that situation, I would recommend building a bridge interior model that includes the visible portions of the starship hull as seen through viewscreens or windows. Then the player can use the Shift+F1 virtual cockpit mode to view the model or the F1 camera to hide it.

TexMurphy · Post by **TexMurphy** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:40 pm

cool idea... gonna do that with the Vesuvius Class this weekend...

JNOV · Post by **JNOV** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:26 am

Thanks for the replies, Gents.

Milo:

Is the view functionality you describe above enabled in a downloadable patch? Thanks for the support!

- JNOV

John DiCamillo · Post by **John DiCamillo** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:02 am

Yes, it will be shortly. I'm trying to fix a few other issues at the same time.

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