Everything you want to know about production starts with Xargun

[Wilhammer]

Xarguns' most excellent notes need to be FAq'ed and Excel'ed.

I am trying to to do that now, as I have the next 8 days off, WitP most of it away.

But, I start this thread to start a discussion in one place, I hope, on production.

Here are my notes, thus far. Most of it is from Xargun:

------------------------------------------

1 Resource point = 1.25 Resources (round down) + 1 Supply
1 Oil Point = 6 Oil + 1 Fuel
1 Manpower Point requires 10 Resources per point or none will operate.
Consumes 10 Resources per point. Creates 4 Manpower Point per point
1 Heavy Industry Point requires 1 Resource + 2 Oil in the hex to operate. [No consumption here]
1 Heavy Industry Point consumes 1 Resource + 1 Oil.
Produces 1 HI added to HI Pool + 1.5 Fuel + 1 Supply

Aircraft and Engine Factories: These production size is per month / not per day

Engines: If HI available equal to engine factory size, then engines CAN be produced.
# of factory (each factory at each location is done separately) + RN (1-30) / 30 (round down).
Consumes 18 HI per engine built.

Airframe: No HI requirement
# of factory (each factory at each location is done separately) + RN (1-30) / 30 (round down).
Consumes 18 HI per engine needed on aircraft + # of engines [So for a G3M Nell it will cost you 36 HI
+ 2 Mitsubishi engines (another 36 HI)

1 Vehicle/Armaments Factory Point requires 6 Heavy industry per point or none will be produced
Consumes 6 HI per point and produces 1 appropriate point
1 Naval/Merchant Shipyard Point consumes 3 HI
Repair Yards produce repair points equal to their size daily (for free). Can store up to 4x their size

It is possibly for the smaller factories (engine & Aircraft below 10) to never produce a single product. It probably won't happen that way, but it could. These small factories are cheap and easy to enlarge so do it. I recommend at least a size 20 factory - that way you should produce 2 items every 3 days.

Oil Point (size 1 port or greater) = 6 oil + 1 fuel
Oil Point (size 0 port) = 6 oil + 0 fuel

No fuel is created in a oil center with size 0 port only the oil...

Mandalay by way of example will produce each turn, (50 oil points)
300 oil
0 fuel


Not so simply instructions:

Convert A5M4 Claude -> A6M2 Zero (Nagasaki has 6)
Convert G3M Nell -> G4M1 Betty (Gumma has 20)

Convert Nissan engines to Nakajima
Convert Aichi engines to Nakajima
Expand Nakajima engines

Leave the rest alone for the next 6 months of the game.

Rangoon will produce each turn (50 oil points)
300 oil
50 fuel


First off... Yes, you need to pull resources and oil back to japan to the tune of roughly 6000 of each per day - luckily you have enough stockpiled for roughly 190 days - so if you don't have most / all of the bases you need by then, GAME OVER.. As to where to land them it depends on where its coming from, but you want to concentrate in large ports so they can unload faster. Try for Sasebo as its a size 10 port as is Hiroshima I believe. Tokyo is just too far east - save it, Osaka and Nagoya for sending out supplies and fuel to your bases...

Once you dump off the oil / resources in Sasebo and such the rail will move it all over Japan to where its needed... BUT remember not everything is connected to the Home Islands.. You have industry in Formosa you need to fuel... Some on Sakhalin Island thats need oil and resources, not to mention China and Kwangtung - especially Singapore and Manilla (I think) once you take them. You will have industry all over the place and it ALL needs fed to keep the HI points up where you need them to be. Right now I barely have enough HI points to run everythign I have and I still have major expansion to do - just waiting for my current expansion to finish and for more supplies to save up.

Xargun

Out of the 9 engines designs you only need 5 different ones and then only a couple in large amounts. You need Aichi, Nissan, Hitachi, Mitsubishi and Nakajima... With Nakajima the top and Mitsubishi the second. I believe Aichi is only one aircraft design (D4Y Judy) but you definately want that one - better DB for your CVs. Kawasaki has 1 type as well (Ki-46-III KAI Dinah fighter. HItachi has several types - mostly recon and transport planes. I forget what the Nissan engine is for, but I think only 1 design as well.

In my current PBEM game, I am currently producing all 5 engines in varying amounts. I think I have only a single factory for the small three and large factories of Mitsu and Nakajimas.

The A6M3 is crappy, but you need them to fill incoming fighter squadrons. Upgrade to Zekes as fast as you can once you get them... Right now I have over 100 A6M2s in production and unfortunately only have like 10 in my pool - just reloaded all my CVs and airgroups and upgraded all CV Claudes to Zeros. So now I just have to produce enough to cover my losses. BTW, dont expect to convert aircraft overnight on CVs - so far its been like 3 days and only 9 Zeros have been repaired while the other 9 are sitting around broken. Sloooooow..

Xargun

I agree. I like smaller factories (size 50 or so) compared to 80+. Its just better that way, as you must have HI in the pool equal to the entire factory size before it will even consider producing ANY engines and the larger factories may not make any in the later years when HI grow short. I think I have AIchi expanded to 50 (I want lots of DBs for my CVs) and the others are in the 20-30 range. I have one huge Nakajima factory (150+) and the rest are smaller. As 42 closes I will probably convert at least one or two of the Mitsu (80 size) factories over to Nakajimas as the need for Mitsu decrease a lot in late 42 and onward (when compared to Nakajima need).

I believe HI points accumulate into a pool and are spent from that pool in a certain order. The trick with engines is that if you have a 30 Kawasaki Engine factory you need 30 HI points available before it will even THINK about making engines... Then, you will only produce 1-2 engines out of the factory per day. So if you have 30 HI left - the factory will run, but it will only produce 1 engine as the each cost 18. The extra 12 HI would carry over to next turn.

Basically the factory will not produce ANY engines if you do not have HI points equal to the size of the factory left in your pool - which is why those large Mitsubishi factories are not that great - you'd be better off having 2 or 3 smaller ones than 1 large one.

Xargun

These questions were confirmed via Betas and the design team in another thread. HI consumes 1 oil and 1 resource ONLY - BUT it needs 2 oil at the location per HI point for it to run - kinda like a reserve. If you have 500 HI, it checks to see if you have 500 resource and 1000 oil at the location - if you do - it will run and consume 500 of each and produce 500 HI (also produce 500 supply and 750 fuel). If you do not have the 500 resource & 1000 oil no HI will run at the location.

HI production is ALL OR NOTHING - same as Aircraft Engines... If it doesn't make the checks it won't run any of the industry.

Xargun

[Mr.Frag]

Minor error there ...

Aircraft = 18 HI for frame + 18 HI per engine.

36, 54 or 90 HI depending on the aircraft.

[Xargun]

Hey now... I appreciate the glory, BUT most of MY knowledge has come from 3 places....

1. The Manual - yes the manual.. Its wrong in many places and ways, but it still has good information
inside...

2. Mr.Frag - He has answered all of my questions which have enabled me to make good decisions on
Japanese production and understand how it works.

3. Mogami - Weeks (maybe months now) ago Mogami posted several long threads about Japanese
economy and I have learned a LOT from those... If he was around he would be the Japanese economy
Guru - not me... I bow before his wisdom and experience [:D]

Xargun

PS Speaking of Mogami anyone know when he'll be back online ???

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer

Xarguns' most excellent notes need to be FAq'ed and Excel'ed.

I am trying to to do that now, as I have the next 8 days off, WitP most of it away.

But, I start this thread to start a discussion in one place, I hope, on production.

Here are my notes, thus far. Most of it is from Xargun:

------------------------------------------

1 Resource point = 1.25 Resources (round down) + 1 Supply
1 Oil Point = 6 Oil + 1 Fuel
1 Manpower Point requires 10 Resources per point or none will operate.
Consumes 10 Resources per point. Creates 4 Manpower Point per point
1 Heavy Industry Point requires 1 Resource + 2 Oil in the hex to operate. [No consumption here]
1 Heavy Industry Point consumes 1 Resource + 1 Oil.
Produces 1 HI added to HI Pool + 1.5 Fuel + 1 Supply

Aircraft and Engine Factories: These production size is per month / not per day

Engines: If HI available equal to engine factory size, then engines CAN be produced.
# of factory (each factory at each location is done separately) + RN (1-30) / 30 (round down).
Consumes 18 HI per engine built.

Airframe: No HI requirement
# of factory (each factory at each location is done separately) + RN (1-30) / 30 (round down).
Consumes 18 HI per engine needed on aircraft + # of engines [So for a G3M Nell it will cost you 36 HI
+ 2 Mitsubishi engines (another 36 HI)

1 Vehicle/Armaments Factory Point requires 6 Heavy industry per point or none will be produced
Consumes 6 HI per point and produces 1 appropriate point
1 Naval/Merchant Shipyard Point consumes 3 HI
Repair Yards produce repair points equal to their size daily (for free). Can store up to 4x their size

It is possibly for the smaller factories (engine & Aircraft below 10) to never produce a single product. It probably won't happen that way, but it could. These small factories are cheap and easy to enlarge so do it. I recommend at least a size 20 factory - that way you should produce 2 items every 3 days.

Oil Point (size 1 port or greater) = 6 oil + 1 fuel
Oil Point (size 0 port) = 6 oil + 0 fuel

No fuel is created in a oil center with size 0 port only the oil...

Mandalay by way of example will produce each turn, (50 oil points)
300 oil
0 fuel


Not so simply instructions:

Convert A5M4 Claude -> A6M2 Zero (Nagasaki has 6)
Convert G3M Nell -> G4M1 Betty (Gumma has 20)

Convert Nissan engines to Nakajima
Convert Aichi engines to Nakajima
Expand Nakajima engines

Leave the rest alone for the next 6 months of the game.

Rangoon will produce each turn (50 oil points)
300 oil
50 fuel


First off... Yes, you need to pull resources and oil back to japan to the tune of roughly 6000 of each per day - luckily you have enough stockpiled for roughly 190 days - so if you don't have most / all of the bases you need by then, GAME OVER.. As to where to land them it depends on where its coming from, but you want to concentrate in large ports so they can unload faster. Try for Sasebo as its a size 10 port as is Hiroshima I believe. Tokyo is just too far east - save it, Osaka and Nagoya for sending out supplies and fuel to your bases...

Once you dump off the oil / resources in Sasebo and such the rail will move it all over Japan to where its needed... BUT remember not everything is connected to the Home Islands.. You have industry in Formosa you need to fuel... Some on Sakhalin Island thats need oil and resources, not to mention China and Kwangtung - especially Singapore and Manilla (I think) once you take them. You will have industry all over the place and it ALL needs fed to keep the HI points up where you need them to be. Right now I barely have enough HI points to run everythign I have and I still have major expansion to do - just waiting for my current expansion to finish and for more supplies to save up.

Xargun

Out of the 9 engines designs you only need 5 different ones and then only a couple in large amounts. You need Aichi, Nissan, Hitachi, Mitsubishi and Nakajima... With Nakajima the top and Mitsubishi the second. I believe Aichi is only one aircraft design (D4Y Judy) but you definately want that one - better DB for your CVs. Kawasaki has 1 type as well (Ki-46-III KAI Dinah fighter. HItachi has several types - mostly recon and transport planes. I forget what the Nissan engine is for, but I think only 1 design as well.

In my current PBEM game, I am currently producing all 5 engines in varying amounts. I think I have only a single factory for the small three and large factories of Mitsu and Nakajimas.

The A6M3 is crappy, but you need them to fill incoming fighter squadrons. Upgrade to Zekes as fast as you can once you get them... Right now I have over 100 A6M2s in production and unfortunately only have like 10 in my pool - just reloaded all my CVs and airgroups and upgraded all CV Claudes to Zeros. So now I just have to produce enough to cover my losses. BTW, dont expect to convert aircraft overnight on CVs - so far its been like 3 days and only 9 Zeros have been repaired while the other 9 are sitting around broken. Sloooooow..

Xargun

I agree. I like smaller factories (size 50 or so) compared to 80+. Its just better that way, as you must have HI in the pool equal to the entire factory size before it will even consider producing ANY engines and the larger factories may not make any in the later years when HI grow short. I think I have AIchi expanded to 50 (I want lots of DBs for my CVs) and the others are in the 20-30 range. I have one huge Nakajima factory (150+) and the rest are smaller. As 42 closes I will probably convert at least one or two of the Mitsu (80 size) factories over to Nakajimas as the need for Mitsu decrease a lot in late 42 and onward (when compared to Nakajima need).

I believe HI points accumulate into a pool and are spent from that pool in a certain order. The trick with engines is that if you have a 30 Kawasaki Engine factory you need 30 HI points available before it will even THINK about making engines... Then, you will only produce 1-2 engines out of the factory per day. So if you have 30 HI left - the factory will run, but it will only produce 1 engine as the each cost 18. The extra 12 HI would carry over to next turn.

Basically the factory will not produce ANY engines if you do not have HI points equal to the size of the factory left in your pool - which is why those large Mitsubishi factories are not that great - you'd be better off having 2 or 3 smaller ones than 1 large one.

Xargun

These questions were confirmed via Betas and the design team in another thread. HI consumes 1 oil and 1 resource ONLY - BUT it needs 2 oil at the location per HI point for it to run - kinda like a reserve. If you have 500 HI, it checks to see if you have 500 resource and 1000 oil at the location - if you do - it will run and consume 500 of each and produce 500 HI (also produce 500 supply and 750 fuel). If you do not have the 500 resource & 1000 oil no HI will run at the location.

HI production is ALL OR NOTHING - same as Aircraft Engines... If it doesn't make the checks it won't run any of the industry.

Xargun

A contradiction here taken out of your quote:

1. Convert Aichi engines to Nakajima.

2. You need Aichi, Nissan, Hitachi, Mitsubishi and Nakajima... With Nakajima the top and Mitsubishi the second. I believe Aichi is
only one aircraft design (D4Y Judy) but you definately want that one - better DB for your CVs.


....so I would not convert Aichi engines to Nakajima as the Judy's will need them.

[Mr.Frag]

....so I would not convert Aichi engines to Nakajima as the Judy's will need them.

Look at the arrival date for the Judy [;)]

You really think you need all those years worth of engines stockpiled?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Minor error there ...

Aircraft = 18 HI for frame + 18 HI per engine.

36, 54 or 90 HI depending on the aircraft.

Clarification request:

Are you saying that I need (for a Betty for example)

18 + 2 * 18 for the ariframe = 54 HI plus 2 engines (18 HI each) for a total of 90 HI for a Betty, OR

18 for the airframe plus 2 engines for a total of 54 HI for a Betty?

[Mr.Frag]

Yes ...

1 engine + plane = 36 (Zero/Nate)

2 engine + plane = 54 (Nell/Betty/etc)

4 engine + plane = 90 (damn them flying boats are expensive!)

[sven6345789]

What are the other engines for?
According to the list, only Nakajima, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Aichi and Kawasaki are needed.

Why were the others included in the first place? for historic reasons?
How is the Okha powered? Do you need one of the engine types for this "bomb"?

[Rainerle]

Hi,
under the information icon with list all industries there is a line:
Tokyo MXYZ Okha (0)9
but this never appears under Tokyo a/c production.
Is this a factory which will come online later in the game ?

[Spectra]

First off, many thanks to Xargun for consolidating all the scattered production threads in once place...

This encouraged me to sit down last night with the game on my main machine, and Excel in my laptop, and do some serious data entry...

I entered every resource & production site in the game (circa Dec.7 1941), and grouped them broadly into three categories.
1) Owned at start.
2) In the target region for conquest
3) Extra (India, OZ, USSR, distant China)

I think sat back and thought deep thoughts... I've come to a couple of conclusions...

Managing the Japanese economy may not be so hard as I though, as you have a lot less flexibility than I though you would.
Oil is the key (shocking, I know, but listen on).

Japan + nearby conquests (DEI, close China, Burma) has about:
24,000 resources available, 16500 Oil points (Oil x 6), and 13,500 HI (counting 50% damage from conquests). About 8000 resources are used to fund Japan's manpower production, bringing resources & oil together around 16500. Japan's existing industries already use 13500, which means at most you could increase your economy by 22% over the war, given enough time to build up extra Oil, and assuming no losses to American subs (yah, right!). It seems to me that that 22% is mostly safety margin, so what you have will be running at full blast with the friction of war.

Ok, so Japan can't really increase significantly her industrial production, just distribute it differently (more or less of different types of planes, switch between merchant & Warships, vechicles or armaments).

So the roving eye of Japan looks to expand the conquest zone, to get the resources & oil needed to really make a stab at producing enought to survive the American onslaught. Here is where the trouble beings...

Ignore Russa (more trouble than its worth). Far China, India, & Austrialia all could be potential conquests, if your dice are lucky. The problem is, while all three have lots of resource production, none of the three have significant oil production. And you need the Oil to match with the resouces to get your HI working. So attacking these places is a *BAD IDEA*, from a prodcution point of view, as you spend energy to do it, and get litterarly nothing in terms of production... The only area that looks even vaguely appealing is the north part of Far China, but it won't be easy and adds only 200 Oil ( = 1200 HI, not that much ).

So, the scary part is that from a Production POV, it seems best to seize the DEI, Burma, and easy targets in China, and then dig in to defend them... Only problem is, this is what they did historically, and we all know how well that worked!!!
But I can see what Japan did, why they did it, and I can't see any alternative to what they did..... Help!!!

Any ideas??

Spectra
(Japanese Production Fanboy = Enjoys blows to head with large blocks of wood)

[Mr.Frag]

You are pretty much dead on.

Japan after paying for things has:

7465 resources a day, 3900 oil a day.

They will have 9,330 HI left idle after consuming all the Oil.

Should you bring in the oil to cover up the shortfall, you can drop that to 1865 idle.

To get the rest running will require more resources to be shipped in.

[Captain Cruft]

Great post Spectra, thanks!

My as yet untested answer to the conundrum is the 400 oil sitting not far from home at Okha, on the island of Sakhalin. People have said that I'm mad mind you, T-34s rolling across Manchuria etc.

[Spectra]

Other information based on my analysis.

Some are interesting in supply & fuel production. At Japan's peak, once it has conquored all the SRA,
I'm estimating that it will produce about 37k of supply & 25k of fuel a day (roughly). Of this, about 22k of the 25k of fuel will be produced at Japan, the rest in the SRA. Supply is a bit more evenly spread, 19k in the SRA/China, 18k in Japan. (ballpark numbers only).

So the freighter networks to supply supply & fuel will be different. Supply can operate on a mesh system, with a lot of cross-pulling between local bases. Fuel is always going to be a hub-and-spoke system centered on Japan...

Also item of interest is that Japan's aircraft industry is sized to produce about 2000 planes a month (1950). At the start of the war, that's what Japan has, with 50% - 75% switched to research. Later on in the game, as models research is complete, "real" effective production will increase. Given Japan's fundamental inability to dramatically increase overall industrial production, this number is unlikely to change by much (+20% max, unless you starting shutting down tank & ship production). Still a lot compared to 10 trained pilots a turn.. Though some of this will be for upgrades.

Finally, I'm not so sure its a good idea to immediately switch over Claude & Nell production, as mentioned about. The rules state that starting on Jan01, 1942, factories will auto-upgrade to the latest existing models with no damage. So by waiting 3 weeks, you save the damage to the factories, and save the supplies.. I'd keep the Nell in production until then, & halt, but not retool the Claude, and let is auto-upgrade. Warning!! I haven't actually tested this yet, rule book might be wrong.

Also, don't switch over all your Aichi engine production, or you'll short circuit your Judy research program. You need some engines to keep the research planes coming.

[Mr.Frag]

They will not auto-retool because the Betty and the Zero are already in production. Basically, they missed the boat on the free conversion.

[Cap Mandrake]

WOW...do I get course credit for completing this thread? [X(]

[Dolmon]

Nell & claude do upgrade. Its usually on 1/2/1942.

[Mr.Frag]

Nell & claude do upgrade. Its usually on 1/2/1942.

Then we broke something again [:D]

It will always be on the month border if they do because the rollover is on the 1st of eah month. You'll notice that day is not tracked with aircraft.

[Dolmon]

Well if that's the way it's suppose to be then I'll play it that way in the game I'm starting.

Otherwise I actually increase the nell production and just wait for the free conversion to betties[:)].

[Mr.Frag]

Naw, don't worry, thats not going to change. But it does pose an interesting issue longer term with potential upgrades undoing what you wanted if you degrade factories only to have them re-upgrade on you.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Naw, don't worry, thats not going to change. But it does pose an interesting issue longer term with potential upgrades undoing what you wanted if you degrade factories only to have them re-upgrade on you.

ok now im really confused. so this will not be fixed then and we should not retool claudes and nells???

and what about the aichi engine retool or not???