Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies

[mavraam]

I'm playing as the Allies against the AI.

I'm thinking about an early invasion of the Marshall Islands from PH. By early I mean 1st to 2nd quarter 1942.

The idea is this:

1) The main island can support (eventually) a spoilage free base.
2) By cutting off Gilbert instead of invading it first, the Japs will either have to run the guantlet to supply it or it will die on the vine and can be picked off easily later.
3) Control of these islands will effectively connect Pearl and Australia allowing the free flow of supplies back and forth.
4) If Japan decides to put up a major fight, it will distract carriers and other resources from more valuable areas. I'm willing to lose the battle if it means weakening Japan elsewhere.
5) It provides the possibility of a 'Southern Midway'.

Cons:

1) The Japs are still much stronger and more experienced than me at this point.
2) It has the possibility of being a 'reverse Midway' [:@]

Am I way off base (pun intended [:'(]) or is there some merit to this plan?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm a complete newbie in regards to the Pacific Theater so forgive me if this is obviously stupid.

[Captain Cruft]

Against the AI it will almost definitely work since it has no brain. In fact why stop at the Marshalls you could probably walk right into the Home Islands or at least the Kuriles ...

Sorry, I don't have much time for the AI even though I have been playing it to learn the game.

Against a human I definitely would not consider it. They will almost certainly have (or can transfer) 50-100 Betties/Nells in the Kwajalein area which can make a mess out of anything naval and Allied at this stage of the war. Wait till you have the means to do the job properly.

[52nd Lowland]

Yep the Jap player should be able to see any invasion attempt and easily transfer air assets into the area to combat this..that is the PBEM player.God knows what the AI would do..

[Captain Cruft]

ORIGINAL: 52nd Lowland
Yep the Jap player should be able to see any invasion attempt and easily transfer air assets into the area to combat this..that is the PBEM player.God knows what the AI would do..

I just love the way you can send Nells and Betties virtually across the whole map in one go ... [:D] The fact that they can then undertake a mission on the same day is IMHO incorrect but then personally I would never do this so they can recover fatigue.

[Drongo]

I think you guys are killing his AI excitement a bit.

Mavraam,

All your reasons to go there are sound.

Probably the correct thing to do against a human opponent in the situation you described would be to retake the Gilberts first as a staging/support base and then push on from there into the Marshalls under land based air cover.

Against the AI, you can get away with taking a staging base within the Marshalls themselves. However, just make sure you go for one that's lightly defended as the Marshalls are all atolls and atoll invasions can be disasters if the enemy holds them in strength. To establish whether it is lightly defended, recon it from the air first (or even try a sub landing party).

Once you get a foot hold, immediately bring in the airbase and engineer units (they should be sitting in a reserve TF off shore) and get your land based air in as quick as.

Against the AI, you probably only have to deal with about 2 Betty units + some Zero escort when you first come in. Survive that and you should have enough time to get established before the IJN CVs turn up (if they do at all).

Once things quiten down, you can start using your airpower (+ naval bombardments) to prepare the way for further expansion in the Marshalls.

It all should be do-able. The main thing to remember is that you are a long way from home if something goes wrong. [;)]

Good Luck.

[mavraam]

Thanks guys for all the advice.

Sounds like this is kind of taking advantage of the AI. But on the other hand that will be the case no matter where I attack so its kind of a non-issue in my mind.

I didn't really think about the Japs moving a massive load of air assets there for defense, I was thinking they would use carriers which would pull them out of the main action for a while.

It should have occured to me, that's how I defended Port Moseby in the Coral Sea scenario, moving everything with wings and bombs to that base and drawing the Jap fleet into striking range.

But WTH, since this is just a learning game anyway, I'm going to give it a go and see what happens.

[AmiralLaurent]

Just beware of the AI, it is dumb as all AI are but the UV AI has the bad habit to send every CV it has when its territory was invaded.

[mavraam]

or even try a sub landing party).

I assume I do this by loading a sub with some LCU which will load only a fraction of it and sending it to unload on that island?

If I do this, aren't I dooming these soldiers to certain death? Or is it possible I can save some of them by loading them back in the sub and getting the hell out of there?

And also, if the island is completely unguarded, could this small band of brothers actually capture it? If so, this seems like a pretty cheesy way to take back some of the obscure islands.

[Drongo]

It all depends on whether you want to practice for an "anything goes" game against a human player or just have fun against the AI.

Sub landings to occupy islands may be considered "gamey" by some and good tactics by others. Its entirely up to you how you want to play.

As to how they work,

create a sub transport TF (complete with sub)
order it to load a unit you dislike
sail it to one of the islands
unload the troops
if shooting occurs, the island is occupied
if the sub sinks, the island probably has a CD battery and/or a minefield
if shooting does not occur, the island is probably empty and may be captured.

If the island is an occupied atoll, your handfull of men will normally be anihilated on the turn they land. Under other circumstances, they will probably just be bombarded and if they survive, you can try to withdraw them prior to any further combat.

One major reason why some naughty players may use this tactic is because the land combat screen comes up when your tiny little force is bombarded by the defenders on the turn they land. This screen shows what units you are up against and how strong they are. Quite useful for planning later invasions. Effectively, it is a recon by fire.

Use it and suffer eternal damnation!!!

[mavraam]

order it to load a unit you dislike

LMAO.

But I like all my troops equally!

I'm not sure if this tactic is completely gamey. After all, If someone left a base completely unguarded, it would be reasonable for a small group of soldiers to 'capture' it. Perhaps there should be a rule that in order for a base to be controlled it has to be occupied. A small engineer unit could be divided into 3 mini groups and used to occupy 3 bases. Of course supply would be a PITA!

[mongo]

A small engineer unit could be divided into 3 mini groups and used to occupy 3 bases

Can you take a base w/Engineers? I thought they had no combat power. Or are there some with?

I was thinking about that the other day looking at SeaBee TOEs. They should have at least a little combat power (as should all combat engineer units).

[Sneer]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just beware of the AI, it is dumb as all AI are but the UV AI has the bad habit to send every CV it has when its territory was invaded.



no problem AI do not react to invasions
I took Gilbert ISl in May/42 and Nauru in 8/42
no response
Ai bombards Lae only

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: mongo

A small engineer unit could be divided into 3 mini groups and used to occupy 3 bases

Can you take a base w/Engineers? I thought they had no combat power. Or are there some with?

I was thinking about that the other day looking at SeaBee TOEs. They should have at least a little combat power (as should all combat engineer units).

Seabees were not combat units, but civilian workmen enlisted in their own construction speciality.

[RolandRahn_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Just beware of the AI, it is dumb as all AI are but the UV AI has the bad habit to send every CV it has when its territory was invaded.

Hmm...
November 42 against historical AI.
I have Wake, Marcus, Bonin and Iwo Jima.
KB didn't show up.
I send a BB force to bomb Tokyo.
Nothing happened.
I got Megalomaniac and send a BB force to Osaka/Kobe - 4 BBs lost by land based dive bombers.
I think I will start another game once the patch is out with AI 'Hard'.

Roland

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: mavraam

I'm playing as the Allies against the AI.

I'm thinking about an early invasion of the Marshall Islands from PH. By early I mean 1st to 2nd quarter 1942.

The idea is this:

1) The main island can support (eventually) a spoilage free base.
2) By cutting off Gilbert instead of invading it first, the Japs will either have to run the guantlet to supply it or it will die on the vine and can be picked off easily later.
3) Control of these islands will effectively connect Pearl and Australia allowing the free flow of supplies back and forth.
4) If Japan decides to put up a major fight, it will distract carriers and other resources from more valuable areas. I'm willing to lose the battle if it means weakening Japan elsewhere.
5) It provides the possibility of a 'Southern Midway'.

Cons:

1) The Japs are still much stronger and more experienced than me at this point.
2) It has the possibility of being a 'reverse Midway' [:@]

Am I way off base (pun intended [:'(]) or is there some merit to this plan?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm a complete newbie in regards to the Pacific Theater so forgive me if this is obviously stupid.

I'd be interested to see how the AI would react to this move? Same thing as how I would be interested to see how the AI would react to an early taking of Johnston Is or Christmas Is as the Japanese player?

My gut intuition is the AI will not do much of anything beyond providing token resistance with whatever is currently on hand, to any "out-of-the-box" human action. And an early 1942 invasion of the Marshalls is definitely "out-of-the-box". As with any "out-of-the-box" human thing vs the AI, you are inviting AI breakage.

[Sneer]

Ai carries out its plans and do not react to anything. i think that against AI I'll have Marshall's Isl except Kwajalein till the end of 42. With strong base at Eniwotek I don't need to take this stronghold (japs have over 40k of troops and multiple CDs so let's them starve)

I don't really care about BB losses ( lost 4 at PH and 1 later) because you have many of them and number increases fast. Loss of Fuso and Yamato to Japan is much more harmful in my game.

I think about playing Japan ..... to find challenge for a while as I can't imagine playing WITP PBEM campaign

[The Dude]

I am playing the grand campaign as the allies and i invaded maloelap about feb-Mar 42 as my 1st offensive move. I used the 24 and 25th Inf Divs and took the base. I parked 3 P40 grps and a bunch of B25 and A20s there. Once Kwajalien was pounded into dust. Any Japs that came in range were easy pickings. Now its Oct 43 and the Marshalls, Gilberts and the carolines up to truk are just big POW camps. The way I see it, once you have one island the Japs dont stand a chance. Of course once i play as the Japanese I WILL smite the allies!

[Top Cat]

Hmm the AI does appear to be stymied by any ahistorical moves.

I simply parked a cruiser at Tarawa for a couple of months early in the game and the Japanese never invaded. By May 42 I've built up Tarawa into a nice B17 base and have made several landings in the Marshall islands.

The AI has not retaliated yet. Seems to be fixated on Rangoon where he's had is head handed to him on a plate.

By mid May 42 the AI has also :
- not landed in New Guinea
- not landed in Guadalcanal (or anywhere near it)
- not finished conquering Java (and numerous other bits)
- not landed near Tarakan (missing out on oil here!)
- not attempted to neutralise the Dutch Air Force which has wreaked havoc with AI AK/AP's
- had 5 Divisions + 13 misc. units clobbered at Rangoon where the AI got itself surrounded
- lost approx. 400+ planes in 3 months on the ground at Tavoy
- never flew a single plane as CAP at Tavoy!

Anyway you get the picture. At current rate I expect the Brits will be in Singapore by late 42. B17's there will cause grief to AI oil production and it's all down hill from there. Throw in what I can do with the Yanks and Aussies and the picture is very lop sided.

Hoping the AI can be tweaked a bit in a future patch or as some people have already requested the Allied reinforcements arrive later or are politically pinned to rear areas.


Cheers
Top Cat

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Top Cat what difficulty are you playing at? The default level for any type of challenge is mentioned by the beta testers as the Hard difficulty level.

[DrewMatrix]

With Scen 15/Version 1.10/AI = Hard I managed to do an invasion of Maleotip by early Feb '42 (but I have now restarted v1.21 Scen 16 so I can't look it up).

The keys were
1) to do a fast anti airfield strike on Kwajalein, 2 TFs of 2 CVs each. (I tend to have a lot of CAP, 70%, but all the VS/VB/TB on anti airfield
2) immediately follow with a bombardment (I had 3 BBs and 3 CAs IIRC.

That made such a wreck of Kwajalein I could keep it suppressed from then on with some combination of CV air and bombardment.

Then I invaded Maleotop (Airfield 3 as I recall, much easier to take than Kwajalein).

_If_ you can get that first devastating hit against the Kwajalein Airfield this should work vs a human too.

Addendum:
I forgot to mention (big omission). I did not attempt any aggressive CV moves in the Central Pacific _until_ I spotted the Japanses CVs in strength in the Dutch East Indies.