Rapid expansion equals high losses to subs.

[moses]

I'm a little over a month in my current game and US subs have killed 9 of my transports with dutch sub taking one tranport and 2 minesweepers. This is a little greater then historical, (US subs killed 35 merchants in 6 months), but I have to admit that after the first week of the campaign I became less focused on ASW warfare then I should have. Many losses have occured recently in areas where I had no ASW aircraft operating.

Now on my first turn I did the normal invasion of Malaysia, landed at three sites in PI, took Wake and Guam and had a fleet on the way to Tarawa. Basically an historical type start with some modifications here and there. I here of many players invading dozens of sites on the first day with more on the second day. All these invasions cannot possibly be properly supported and should reasonably be punished by high losses to subs. So my theory is that this is whats causing the very high losses to subs that some people are reporting.

Comments?

Based on what I've seen allied subs vs. JP ASW is almost dead on where it should be. The subs seem a slight bit too strong early on but I think a lot of that may be attributable to lazy play by the JP player in this case me.

[2ndACR]

As the IJN, I have invaded up to 30 bases on turn 1 and 2. My losses to subs in the attempts were light.
Usually no more than 4 attacks in the 2 days. I take more damage from coastal guns even though each
landing that goes somewhere where there are guns gets a bombardment group first. I wind up with alot of damaged DD's
and a few transports. But I make heavy use of ASW a/c at all times, they just do not attack very often.

Alot of my invasions to bases that I know are lightly defended (which is most of them) are definatly not
properly supported the way they should be. For the huge number of invasions you have to be willing to
risk high loss rate for the gain you hope to recieve out of it. Like conquering Borneo in a week, the Philipines within a
month, most of DEI except the big Island within 2 weeks, Palembang in 3 days (you cannot ship from it without losses) great place to base a/c out of early, always in supply, is temperate.

[moses]

How are your losses to subs after a month or so? BTW I'm not making a value judgement on attacking so my bases'(although its not to my taste). I,m just speculating that this may be the cause of some players reporting excessive losses to US subs.

[McNaughton]

From what I gather, players are attacking with Japan too quickly. Japan actually reused a lot of transports and escorts, and attacked within a timetable reasoned by the number of escorts avaliable. Operations in the East Indies did begin fairly late, mostly by January 1942. By this time most of the other landings have taken place (in Malaya, Philippines, Central Pacific) so shipping and ASW could be dedicated to the landiongs in the East Indies. Invading places with one or two transports unescorted was never done by Japan, but a popular tactic in PacWar. Since WitP allows subs to cover greater areas than PacWar, they are more effective, requiring players to guard their convoys better.

Operations should be carefully planned out to conserve forces, as not only do your invasion TFs need escorting, but so do supply and routine convoys. Only about three invasion forces should be at sea at any given time. Malaya and Philippines should be a main priority, ending operations there by January 1942. The Central Pacific should be limited to Wake Island and Guam. Once 1942 arrives focus must be on the East Indies, with one invasion TF focussing on Sumatra, another on Borneo, and the third on securing bases in the East to stop reinforcements arriving. If there are Philippine islands still occupied by US forces, they must be left until the East Indies Campaign is done. Focus primarily on Luzon and Mindanao, as the other bases can't offer much in the way of resistance (too few units, too low supply, too undeveloped bases).

Basically, keep convoy numbers down so ASW can be concentrated. Use the KB to provide air cover so your large convoys don't get splattered by enemy aircraft. You may even want to use some of your better ASW fleet destroyers to escort invasion TFs, leaving regular ASW ships to worry about supplying (so they don't get chewed up).

I don't think Japan should ever have transport task forces (invasion or supply) with fewer than 10 vessels.

[2ndACR]

I have run many games and restarts out to the end of 41 refining my timetables, opening moves, what can be attacked on day one, from what base, can the unit take its obj. I think the most losses I have occured is around 20 ships total.
About 6 of those were DD's (dang shore guns). That is losses to all types. To me a loss does not matter what caused it.
Losses to subs are usually on the return voyage after invading. Almost always get a transport popped around Khota Bharu
and another around Legaspi, if one of those do not occur I will get popped outside of Brunei every time.

[kokubokan25]

In my first month of war, the loses to Allied subs are similar in number that 2ndACR states. However, running now in july 1942, with almost DEI and Burma in my hands and with my reserves of resources and oil in Japan dangerously low, i must mantain five huge convoys from Balikpapan, Palembang, Batavia, Brunei and other dutch island i can't remember to Sasebo. Those convoys are escorted with three destroyers and four PG each with ten transport ships. Actually i lost 1 SHIP full in the way to japan and another in way to DEI. Yet many attacks fail by the allied dud torps. The dangerous zone is the strait between Formosa and Luzon. Each day my Mavis spotted three and sometimes four subs in this zone.
I have also two ASW groups based at Takao but although the ships that contain are 2 points in ASW capabitity by the moment are also unseless with no KILL confirmated. I have nightmares thinking in the future with more allied subs.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: moses
Based on what I've seen allied subs vs. JP ASW is almost dead on where it should be.

An ASW task force of twenty ships and an anti-sub strength of 60 attacked an American sub in coastal waters near the Philippines over a three day period (three separate attacks). Ten depth charges have been drop and no hits have been registered.

This sounds about right historically.

Note: My Japanese submarine would have been sunk long ago if the spent some much time spotted, in shallow water and attack by such a strong anti-sub force. I keep my subs in deep water all the time, while the computer seems to operate with impunity. At least that is how it seems so far.

[moses]

I believe that it generally conceded that allied ASW is too strong and that this is being worked on.