Best way for Allies to defend China early?

[ZOOMIE1980]

So what tactic does and Allied player use against a Jap player that is aggresively pursuing a "knock out China" strategy. A very aggressive Jap player will likely use a lot of small SNLF and combat engineering units, and maybe split some larger infantry units to garrison their bases, thus freeing up large divisions and brigades to move massive force forward at Yenen, Homan/Sian, Ichang, etc.... hoping to drive the Allied player back into the deep interior of about five bases. Two strageies...

1) Retreat to interior where Japan will have slower movement off rail and more supply problems and be in range of ground attack aircraft.

2) Scatter like guerillas, everywhere, and create a mess.

[rogueusmc]

2) Create a mess.....that's my vote.

[moses]

1) Send three of the four divisions north of Yenen to Yenen. Once there this position will hold.

2) Move at least a dozen corps into Changsa immediately and dig in.

3) Send 2-4 corps from Chunking to North China. Send everything else in NW and Western China via fastest route to Changsa.

4) Get the flying tigers into China early as they are essential to prevent Japan from bombing your economy into the stone age.

Even if you lose Changsa you will have taken the edge off the JP army.

[Mr.Frag]

Get your troops INTO bases asap!

They all start in rough shape, the quicker you get them into a base, the quicker they will start growing stronger.

Get your rear area boys heading for Japan. The Units all the way out west are of no value at all until they come west. Leave the Brits to deal with that end of the world.

Major NOTE! Do NOT move a unit and activate the VN Divisions. Stay away! You already have the road cut to mess with supplies, that is all that needs to be done there.

Leave units in positions to cut supply paths! Key issue. Japan can only advance with supplied troops. Break the supply lines, ignore the troops themselves. It will keep Japan having to double back to kick you back off the supply line to be able to advance. This takes time (while your troops from the west continue to get closer).

Use the AVG to your advantage. It can kill any Japanese aircraft in China without breaking a sweat. Again, leave the Brits to deal with the west here and protect China for all it is worth. Time spent messing with Japan in China takes focus off other areas. Remember to hammer (ground attack) any units the turn of the attack. It by itself will not cause anything other then trivial losses, but the unit you hit will not help out in the attack possibly reducing a 2:1 attack into a 0:1 attack which will cause major losses and require multiple days of rest before an attack can happen again.

Do not attack at all unless you have massive odds. Aggressive defence causes more losses then attacking. Attacking tires out your troops, making it simpler for Japan to get the required odds to kick you back. Defending even when you loose generally results in your troops still being in fairly good shape.

[Raverdave]

I simply fall back and avoid major battles against the Japanese.............this will force the IJN player to keep more LCUs in China and will also keep the point score down. The mistake that all first time allied gamers do is to try and go head to head against the Japanese...it is not worth the time men and points.

[moses]

I believe that against a fall back strategy, strategic bombing will be the answer. I've tested it enough to believe that at fairly low cost I can reduce the remaining few resourse centers to below where China can sustain itself. As soon as the Burma road is cut China is toast.

If china retains Changsa or Yenan the strategic bombing option is going to be much less effective.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Thanks one and all. The Japanese AI just sleeps in China for all I can tell. I noticed the problem when I started playing myself in a one man hotseat game. The Japanese have split some units, and use base forces and small SNLF type units and ARM units to barely maintain garrison strength and this leaves them MASSIVE inf divisions to pummel the Chinese forces, which are numerous but very poor quality.

It did not occur to me to move the Yunan divisions east. I thought I'd need to have them keep the back door shut as the Japs are making rapid progress in Burma and might be tempted to move some 25th Army divisions north to join the 15th Army troops and move into the Back Door enforce...

Allies are using the 38th Division in China now to open the rail to Hanoi. Nothing I can do about that either, they are going to push my units off the rails, no matter what. They are even moving the 48th Div from the PI into China!

I was using the AVG to protect Mandalay, not China, because Jap air is out of range of my central Chinese bases. I guess that's a mistake?

I ask becuase I am actually beginning a PBEM game and don't want to be too stupid a China. A theater that largely baffles me on both sides.....

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

I simply fall back and avoid major battles against the Japanese.............this will force the IJN player to keep more LCUs in China and will also keep the point score down. The mistake that all first time allied gamers do is to try and go head to head against the Japanese...it is not worth the time men and points.

I agree, as it is now you can't get caught in the Yenan-Lanchow "death trap". Due to the way the rail lines are laid out, the Japanese player will always win the "race" to Yenan. After that the Japanese player just rolls the Chinese back into a corner before destroying them out in the hinterlands of western China. So the more the Chinese put into this area, the more that will eventually be destroyed.

The key is holding Sian. You can guard two directions from here and you won't be cut off. If Sian is lost, the road to Chungking opens up and it's going to be tough for the Chinese to survive.

[esteban]

I would send the SEAC Chinese divisions into Burma, to keep the road open as long as possible.

Some other things to watch for against a person:

1) don't completely strip your rear areas. One or two suicidal Japanese parachute units on top of bases where you have only left a base force is a very effective way of FUBARing your supply lines, and conducting "industrial espionage" by halving the HI in a captured city. The HI is halved yet again when you take the city back.

2) Collapsing back onto bases is ok, but remember that any resources/HI in a base hex that you allow enemy units to enter become non-operational. So you can find your forward bases very short of supply, even if you stop the initial Japanese attacks.

3) Save your replacements for your very best units. Let the others die off in combat if necessary, and they come back in Chungking as cadres.

4) I have to agree that the key point in the whole Chinese defense is Sian. If you lose that, you are cut off from most of your Chinese oil production in the north.

[moses]

Its interesting the disagreements on basic strategy for China. It might actually be interesting to have a short scenario for China. The good thing about it is it could be played very quickly. Playing solitare with just china I've been playing a month in little over an hour.

I really think the main problem for China is that its forces at start are all in the wrong place. Once they get where they need to be China will be fine. Japan has the quality units but China has massive quantity. Against 20 divisions, 20 independent brigades and a dozen or so smaller units, China had 72 Corps!!. The problem is that at start over half of these are a long way from the fighting.

My goal is to force my opponent to concentrate in order to take his selected objective. For example in Yenan once the divisions from the North rienforce Yenan it does not appear that the JP forces immediately available can take that town. If he wants it he has to shift in several divisions from the south. This will take some time and will guarentee that I will be able to hold Changsa and other locations long enough to get my forces in W and NW China deployed.

The assault on Langchow is actually quite risky to the JP player. Once Yenan falls it takes around a month to get to Lanchow. The road net works to the advantage of the allied player now. Reinforcement can get to the Langchow area from Sien very quickly and you've had time to redeploy forces from Chungkin to the area. Langchow should now be a size 4 base and it will be difficult for Japan to contest the air in that area. The JP supply lines are vulnerable and he will need to use units to constantly deal with that. There is no reason that Lanchow should not be held.

Should the JP player fail in front of Langchow you have scored a huge victory. It will take a month to get his force back to the rail line to redeploy elsewhere. By the time he can attack again you should have 20 corps in changsa dug in to level 6 or 7 fortification.

If you just retreat I seem to get everything for free.

[PeteG662]

I send a few units to disrupt Jap operations around Nanning and can eliminate a few units in the process. I also send a stack of Corps to Canton and sit them there on defense. They will be attacked every 3 turns or so and the Japanese player takes a beating with each attack. Everywhere else I am able to hold the line so far......

[brisd]

I agree, as it is now you can't get caught in the Yenan-Lanchow "death trap". Due to the way the rail lines are laid out, the Japanese player will always win the "race" to Yenan. After that the Japanese player just rolls the Chinese back into a corner before destroying them out in the hinterlands of western China. So the more the Chinese put into this area, the more that will eventually be destroyed.

The key is holding Sian. You can guard two directions from here and you won't be cut off. If Sian is lost, the road to Chungking opens up and it's going to be tough for the Chinese to survive.

I have not played as Allies in China as of yet but as Japan I have followed this exact strategy vs the AI and took both Yenan and Sian and had the Chinese forces bottled up. However, I underestimated the AI (HARD setting) and it concentrated its forces southeast of Lanchow and counter-acted my main (most powerful army) and DEFEATED it. I am now trying to stop the Chinese juggernaught from re-taking Sian. It also has taken advantage of some over aggressive moves by me around Changsha to re-take a city and surround another of my armies. Fun stuff! [8D]
And I agree that the Yenan-Lanchow campaign is not a easy as it first appears for Japan.

[pad152]

Playing Allies in the major campaign as of 4/11/42, I've taken Nanning, Pakhoi, Hanio, Haiphong, Luang Prabang, and Kaifeng, the Japanese AI does nothing! The AI should have been able to take all of eastern China, because I've stripped most of the units and sent them west.

I've even got a couple of ships into Haiphong harbor including a sub-tender and now using it as a sub base. Funny, your ship icons turn yellow if your ships launch from a China base.

The only trick seems to be always keep the Burma road open and use road/rail movement,avoid using trails. Move one or two units at a time, if you use the move all units they seem to take forever to move.

[Grotius]

I'm generally having a good game against the Japanese AI, but China is my single biggest concern about it. As everyone says, the Japan AI really does nothing in China, other than recon and some bombing runs. (Apparently the Allied AI plays China better.) Devs, is this intentional -- an effort to produce a stalemate in the region? It surprises me because while the AI is obviously far from perfect, it's better at attacking (and amphibious assault) than most wargame AI.

[Mr.Frag]

Japan does not have the supply to take on China early in the game. The AI would be committing suicide by trying. Supply is needed to secure the SRA and get production moving for the rest of the war. China is not going anywhere, it will wait. [;)]

[pad152]

Frag

Nobody is saying the Japanese AI should take China, but it should be able to hang-on. Just provide some movement of troop to secure locations, conduct some blocking actions. Taking western China and Indo-China away from the Japanese in early 42 is way to easy.

[Sneer]

Japan does not have the supply to take on China early in the game. The AI would be committing suicide by trying. Supply is needed to secure the SRA and get production moving for the rest of the war. China is not going anywhere, it will wait.


taking as much as possible - Changsha + yenan +sian + Lanchow is essential:
1.Chinase unit are very inexperianced the longer in game the worse situation
2.Breaking Burma suuply route should be exploited to the maximum
3. there is enough supply under condition you turn off all building activities except Central and South Pacific - you really have time to build up bases later in war. You do not have to upgrade Industry in first 2-3 months of war ( except armament + vcehicles)

It was possible to capture SRA + Burma + east India + mentioned targets in China + moderate industry expansion by mid March

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

It was possible to capture SRA + Burma + east India + mentioned targets in China + moderate industry expansion by mid March

Gamewise, yes. Historically, don't think so.[;)]

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: Sneer

It was possible to capture SRA + Burma + east India + mentioned targets in China + moderate industry expansion by mid March

Gamewise, yes. Historically, don't think so.[;)]

And it's just as possible that the Allies will walk right back over you now that you are all spread out [:D]

[Sneer]

To Mr Frag

of course it is not historical because no general has ultimate political power for aggressive movement. especially in combined arms
But.....
you have full power[8D]totally ahistorical situation
Look closer and get more data.
You have to look carefully on supply.
a. stop all building activity in 42 except Pacific
b. Medium action on Philipines - rather blocade to starve then fight and conquer
c. well organized fast ( january-February) transport of resources to Japan from conquered DEI
d. More supply moved from Japan to operational theatres before war starts. ( You can do so on turn 1) - it is not historical but could be done. - -for convinience only -you can prevent spoilage if you can leave AKs unloaded and ready to move
e. Conwoys , conwoys !!!! true not historical for Japan but it is no real invention - strange that they did not learn from allied WWI experiance
Burma situation
a. all bases are taken and burma-british troops are thrown away to jungle to starve - connection to yunan blocked - it still requires presence in theater but no real threat.
B. Basas taken so early because Malaya campaign got serious reinforcement from other theaters ( I messed a lot not counting for historcal targets).
c. Landing forces in Johore Baru + Mersing to split british forces- additional troops taken from Philipines campaign - Japan can afford taking Philipines even 3or even 5 months later then historical. There are no offensive assets in PI without constant flow of supply. You can bypass it ( against AI or PBEM no diffrence). I dont really understand why people are so proud of taking Bataan early - there is no profit in it [8|]
d. After securing Singapore part of troops can secure east India ( January-February)to stop flow of reinforcment into Burma - You can do that if you have
3-4 strong LBA bases + half of Combined Fleet operated (there is no other job for capital ships)to keep supply running. Without reinforcement Burma falls easily in March. so you have low quality land connection. You can ask if Japan can conquer India - Answer is no there is no possibility to keep both land routes and port bases secure and still have potential to attack - british have enough assets to stop you close to calcutta. so stalemate for at least year.
China
a. as sb mentioned - Japan can move troops faster in the initial phase so taking Lanchow & Homan is relatively easy. I think taking Sian is the furthest you can do before supply shirnks to dangerous levels.
b. You can't prevent losing Pakhoi but there are some chances to clear railroad between Changsha and Canton. It is only possible early in 42 as Chinase troops are extremaly inexperianced and not as heavily fortified. postpone it and find later you can't do it .
c. keeping supply running.- earlu in game INF RGT or half BDE unit standing on railway or INF DIV in city and fortifing is enough to keep line if you make pressure in other places. later it is fortified and has mobile units as Tank on Mongolian cav as reserve. you will always have 3-4 days before Japan breaks so you can bring more troops .
You can do this strategy along railroad from Canton to Lanchow- If you split some unit on south coast and abandon some AF bases earlry there is enough unit to make it without beeing in danger (in first stage you need to secure industry/resource/major ports ) only!!!
Just keep mobile troops and some inf units as mobile reserve - it is crucial !!

Conclusions . I doubt you can defeat China or conquer India both on game and reality level.
Beating Cina is not worth costs and time so your aim is to take most of resource/industry and free 2-4 divisions to use in Burma (coastal)-India -and this way keep them away from british really long. this way units build in Japan can solely be used in East theatre on Pacific.
You should notice that there is no real offensive on Pacific. Just keep defense perimeter and keep it strong.
Navy tasks is to harass tropp/supply convoys between OZ and US - this should force enemy to carrier battle early in 42. this way US forces may lose even 1 year in schedule against Japan

This is my way of thinking
does japan any chances to do it historically ???
Yes and No
Argument for ... well you can read above
Aguments against - Politics , rivalization between Army and Navy , very poor use of naval and army assets after initial prewar target were done.
If Japan could do everything perfect it would have chances to keep in much better shape in 43 and 44. and probobly it would take 1-1.5 years more to defeat it
And that is what I try to bring in my game