Sick of RTS games.. this game looks great..question

[rickcr]

Hey all, I really am sick of all the frantic "who can click and get around the screen the fastest" RTS games like Age of Kings which I've played a lot. I really want to play a good tactical war strategy game. I've tried CivIII just a couple times, and I'm sure I might like it if I stick with it but it's a lot of diplomacy and resource gathering, etc and not focused enough on military strategy (although possibly I'm not giving it a fair shake). What I'm looking for is a great turn based military strategy game (I don't care about sub-par graphics or sound). It looks like Korsun Pocket might be the game for me? Are there some other turn based military computer games you've found that you like better (or even just equal to) that you might recommend - or is Korsun Pocket the way to go? Thanks so much for any feedback.

[freeboy]

Korsun is a very player friendly, as we hope BIN will be too, game with good depth and easily used in pbem mode. The ai is the weakest link, and this can be compensated by changing the supply and other modifyiers. Also the game allows user scenarios, many are being planned for the BIN engine soon to be released, we all hope[&o]

[Hartford688]

I know it is not turn based (so maybe of no interest) but HttR is just great. May be "real time" but is no clickfest. In part because you can set the speed but also because of the tremendous AI for your own side. You can micromanage if you want, but by giving orders higher up the command chain you can much reduce the clicking. Plus, the delegation gives a very realistic (in as far as sitting at a PC screen can be) feel.

Or KP/BiN!

[wodin]

Ok here are my thoughts. I feel exaclty the same as you. The only games that are RTS and worth playing so far are the Close Combat series and HTTR.

However HTTR can still be a little daunting and so a turn based game at this level is best to start with.

I love KP and am awaiting BiN. If I was you I'd buy BiN as its going to released very soon. Its a fantatsic turn based game easy to pick up but harder to master. If you want a real complex game that has a steep learning curve then get hold of TOAW COW you can still buy it from the Take 2 website.

Ive also started playing Squad Battle Advance of the Reich. AT first I thought hmm... not sure if I like this, but after reading a few hints and tips at the Team Echo site downloaded some mods this game is becomingone of my favs. Its fast furious fun and gives a very good feel of small infantry tactics. The 3d mode is appalling and a waste of programmers time but the 2d mode is very good indeed, also has a lot of atmosphere.

So if I were you out of all these I'd buy BiN. Then get TOAW COW and theen for a change of scale and pace SB AoTR or SB Korea.

By the way I HATE RTS.

[Kevinugly]

I'd agree with Hartford, HTTR is well worth checking out. It's very similar predecessor (Red Devils Over Arnhem) was the first computer wargame I played coming off of playing the kind of RTS games rick describes and I found it very easy to get into. Korsun Pocket is well worth checking out, but there are quite a few games that fall into the 'turn based military strategy' game:-

'The Operational Art of War' (usually abbreviated to TOAW) is an absolute classic of the genre - best version is the 'Century of Warfare' (COW) - note that copies of this game are not that easy to get hold of.

HPS 'Panzer Campaigns' series of games are quite highly rated although I've found them a little difficult to get into.

'Uncommon Valour' and 'War in the Pacific' (both from Matrix - check out their sections on this forum) may appeal.

Shrapnel produce 'Combat Command 2: Danger Forward' which is rapidly becoming a personal favourite of mine[:)] Don't get this confused with the 'Close Combat' series though[:)]

If you enjoy 'Civ 3' (are you using the 'Conquests' expansion pack? If not, I recommend it!) then it may be worth checking out apolyton.net for any mods that may be to your taste. 'Civ 2' is available at a budget price and there are a large number of mods covering all sorts of historical/un-historical eras.

I hope this helps you a little[:)]

[Rainbow7]

All in all, though, you came to the right company and forum. Matrix specializes in these strategy games. Just take a look at the selection of games on the top right, under "Select a game". Many might appeal to you.

[rickcr]

Thanks guys for all your comments. Much appreciated. A lot of tough decisions I guess as far as what game I should try out first (I'd try them all but time is limited these days..wife,etc,etc:). Do they make any decent naval strategy games or even old frigate sailing battle games? The only ones I've really seen were those Age Of Sail games and the reviews seem pretty bad. Thanks again. I'll probably post more questions after I look at some of these recommendations so far.

[Ron]

Korsun Pocket would be an excellent choice - very nice graphics, the best IMO for an Operational game, very easy to get into but a wealth of depth makes it hard to master and highly replayable, lots of user-made scenarios, decent AI if that's your thing and a thriving PBEM community for head-to-head play against human opponents.

IMO HTTR may be too much initially for someone unfamiliar with wargames in general. I never purchased it myself but got Red Devils over Arnhem, its predecessor, and it is sufficiently more advanced than KP for a beginner.

Since you specified tactical, another series of games to look into would be the Combat Mission games from Battlefront simulating WWII tactical combat in a hybrid turn based - real time structure (we-go), ie you and your opponent plot your turn then watch the action unfold. They are highly detailed and realistic, nice 3D graphics for a wargame and very addictive.

The only problem is every person is very subjective in their tastes and desires, and without a demo to "try before you buy" it is a difficult choice to make. Matrix has a "no demo" policy so you will not be able to check out KP or HTTR that way, though TAO2 and the RDOA Demo, the predecessors of KP and HTTR respectively, are still on the web to try as far as I know. All of the Combat Mission games have Demos to try first.

Good luck!




Ron

[Lionfish]

You also have to think about the different scales of wargamming. Wargamming is broken down into size and time.

Operational Scale = 2km - 20km per hex, time 2 hours - 24 hours per turn, units (counters) represent infantry divisions of 100s to 1000s of men.

Tactical Scale = 100 yrds - 2km per hex, time 15 mins - 2 hours per turn, units (counters) represent an individual squad or individual tank.

There are some hybrids between Tactical and Operational, where a unit will be 3-5 tanks and company of men.


For operational check out the following:

Korsun Pocket (click here) (aka KP)

Battles of Normandy (Click Here) (aka BIN)
Same Engine as KP. Should be out in September


For Tactical check out the following:

Steel Panthers (click here) (aka SP, SPWaW, SP2W2)

This is by far the most popular wargame of all time. It was released by SSI (I think) in the mid-90s and now has taken on a life of its own. There are 3 versions of the game SP2W2, SPHtH, and SPWaW (which is the Matrix release). They are all based of the same game with slight differences. The great news is that they are all FREE (Note: SP2W2 is dos based). Check out the link above which is the Matrix version, there are tons of add-on campaigns. Steel Panthers and it's variations are played by more online wargamers than probably anything else and has way more senarios then any other wargame. There is also a version for modern day battles, like IRAQ War.
Remember this is Squad based. Each unit represents one TANK or Squad of men.

Then there is a couple of Hybrids. My favorite of the in this realm is Talonsoft's Campaign series. East Front II, West Front, and Rising Sun. The units represent 1-4 tanks and larger groups of infantry than SP, but way smaller in scale then KP. Unfortunatly this game is out of print, but I have seen copies for sale online.

The Wargamer website has a website devoted to the Campaign Series, with downloadable scenarios and other stuff.

Wargamer's Campaign Series Website (click here)


Have fun...

Get KP for operational. It is easy to learn and you can pick it up cheap, since it has been out a while.

Get SPWaW for tactical. It is fun, free, and you can find hundreds of players for PBEM and tons of scenarios.

Get West Front and/or East Front II. It maybe harder to find, but the game plays great and there are many scenarios for it. It is a little larger in scale than SPWaW.

Hope this helps...

Have fun

[rickcr]

Great! Thanks so much for all the advice. This has to be one of the most helpful and informative forums I've ever posted on which is encouraging because, as a beginner, I'm sure I'll end up needing some strategy help:) (I'm sure I'll find plenty in the archives to keep more than busy learning.)

[rickcr]

How is War in The Pacific? I don't think anyone has mentioned that yet as a good game to start with. It looks really cool but maybe too complex of a game to start with?

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: rickcr

How is War in The Pacific? I don't think anyone has mentioned that yet as a good game to start with. It looks really cool but maybe too complex of a game to start with?

I would say so! It has an awful lot of depth and requires a lot of time to really 'get into'.

Regarding the 'Age of Sail' games you referred to earlier, I have AoS2 and whilst it doesn't do the larger battles very well - the friendly AI just isn't up to it and the interface doesn't make controlling large numbers of ships very easy at all - it's quite good for 2 or 3 ship battles but you'd need the patches too. Talonsoft games are generally quite bad for this - TOAW Elite edition won't even load without a small file being installed into the temp folder whilst installation is in progress!!! Is it any wonder they folded?

[wodin]

I have to disagree with Eric,

I would NOT buy WiTP or UV if I was a beginner, no way at all!

Buy BiN or KP.

As for Talonsoft games East Front and East Front 2 and Rising Sun and TOAW COW all work with no porblems on an XP machine.

Take 2 website have TAOW COW for sale.

[wodin]

Eric,

TOAW COW is the all time classic operational game. No othe rgame has come close. Buy it if you can.

[EricGuitarJames]

Actually Wodin, you agreed with me (at least I think you did, re-reading my post I might have been a touch ambiguous[;)]) so yes, don't buy either of the Pacific War games mentioned if you are a beginner - they are very complex (WiTP more so, UV isn't too bad as long as it's patched to the latest release and you have a strong interest in that specific theatre of war).

Cheers for the recommendation Wodin, it's on my 'watch' list and if I see it at a 'reasonable' price I'll buy it. In the meantime I'll soldier on with TOAW 1 and 2.

[wodin]

[;)]no problem. I read it wrong I thought you were saying yes to buying WiTP not yes its to complicated for a beginner. Ahh the trials of internet communication were no tone of voice is noticable.

[Spinoza]

What's the difference between the KP-system and the "TOAOW COW"-system ???

[wodin]

KP is very easy to play. TOAW COW is extremely detailed. The learning curve is very steep. However the little Ive seen of it (just havent the time to give it yet) it seems to be a very realistic operational game. Also it has countless scenarios from a wide range of wars.

I suggest all wargamers should own this game.

[Spinoza]

But which is more realistic, or are they in the end just the same ?

[Kevinugly]

That's interesting, I actually found TOAW easier to play initially, it does have a great deal of depth but I didn't feel the need to continuously refer to the manual which I did with KP. Just goes to show..........[:)]