History of the War in CHina vs Japan

[kevini100]

Does anyone have any good informantion or history of the war in China vs Japan. It seems like there isn't that much out there on it. When you read a book about the war China isn't paid that much attention. What I'm interested in is Japanese operations from 41-45 in China. What did they do? what was there plan or strategy?


Kevin

[mogami]

Hi, The Pacific War makes no sense unless you also understand the war between China and Japan.
Japan had pretty much taken all the area they desired in China but was unable to get the CHinese to agree to terms. The Chinese were getting aid through Burma and Indo China so to cut off this flow the Japanese occupied Indo China and this resulted in the boycott by the USA and other powers that resulted in Japan declaring war on them to aquire the SRA.
Just prior to the outbreak of the war in the Pacific the Japanese had conducted a major operation aimed at taking Changsha. They dropped Paratroops (the largest Japanese drop during the 1931-1945 period) And succeeded in occuping the city. However the Chinese launched their largest offensive of the 1931-1945 period and wiped out the paratroops and surrounded the city. The Japanese were able to fight their way out and return to their starting bases. This battle concluded in Sept 1941. It only hardend the Japanese intention to finally win in China where they had at that point suffered more loss of combat troops then they would suffer in the war with the Western Alliances. (This battle of Changsha resulted in over 40k Japanese dead) The Western Alliance never encountered Japanese forces in numbers common in China before MacArthur returns to Philippines and the later battle for Okinanwa.
Japan by late 1941 in China was just trying to force the conflict to a close. They thought that cutting off supply and aquiring enough from the SRA would convince China to come to terms and thus allow them to settle the Pacific War as well. They expanded their war aims after they realized the easy gains in DEI but the orginal plan was to trade back the SRA for peace with the West after ending the China conflict in their favor.

The largest single reason for their failure in China was they never offered the Chinese anything better then complete defeat. (much like the Germans in Europe they forced their enemies into continued fighting because anything was better then surrender) Japan never offered a popular Chinese goverment in their conquered territories and so the Chinese were able to contiune to fight without inner opposition. The Japanese even forced the Nationalist and Communist factions to cooperate.

[sveint]

All I know is that the IJA always saw China as the "main" front. Would be interesting to see if there are any good books on the subject. Or even online sources.

[Ron Saueracker]

Kinda hard to kill Japanese soldiers in China in WITP.

[sveint]

Well this might be the wrong thread for this but I think most players underestimate the importance of the China theatre. If Japan wins (disables or outright conquers China) the Allies are in real trouble. Consequently, if China stabilizes then Japan's only hope is it's navy - a rather slim hope in the long run.

From AAR observations, almost all players treat China as of secondary importance at best. Give me another year (game time) and I can start to make conclusions and not just theories.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Kinda hard to kill Japanese soldiers in China in WITP.

Hi, Not at all. Last turn I lost 13k Japanese troops. Only killed around 9k Chinese.

[UncleBuck]

Most treat China as a secondary front, sicne all movement is by land, so it is slow. Also you coudl lose all of it and still not lose the war with Japan as allies. It is safer and more effective to hold and strengthen rather than atack in CHina. As the Allies let teh vast stretches of China work for you not against.

UB

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Kinda hard to kill Japanese soldiers in China in WITP.

Hi, Not at all. Last turn I lost 13k Japanese troops. Only killed around 9k Chinese.

Well I'm sucking at it right now but have been kinda running a delaying action.[:D] Really sucking[:D][:D]...those death stars are tough unless they are outmaneuvered and dogged from allsides.

[mogami]

Hi, I think it would be easier for you to complie the list of all the ways WITP beats up on you.
A few I know

Air attacks kill 10 percent of your supply 1 percent of every one elses
PT boats hit your ships
CD guns give you trouble
enemy ASW kills your subs
your subs stink
enemy LCU move faster then yours
Your TF can't find the enemy
(you can just add from here to list of WITP woes I missed)


(Sigh) and your always too busy to play me PBEM [:D]

[sveint]

It is safer and more effective to hold and strengthen rather than atack in CHina.

I respectfully disagree. Japan has a unique chance at the beginning when the Chinese forces are off balance and not fortified.

While it is "safe" to just dig in and maintain the situation, this will do nothing to help you elsewhere in the Pacific. But if you can beat back the Chinese and free up forces...

[Bandkanon]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Pacific War makes no sense unless you also understand the war between China and Japan.
Japan had pretty much taken all the area they desired in China but was unable to get the CHinese to agree to terms. The Chinese were getting aid through Burma and Indo China so to cut off this flow the Japanese occupied Indo China and this resulted in the boycott by the USA and other powers that resulted in Japan declaring war on them to aquire the SRA.
Just prior to the outbreak of the war in the Pacific the Japanese had conducted a major operation aimed at taking Changsha. They dropped Paratroops (the largest Japanese drop during the 1931-1945 period) And succeeded in occuping the city. However the Chinese launched their largest offensive of the 1931-1945 period and wiped out the paratroops and surrounded the city. The Japanese were able to fight their way out and return to their starting bases. This battle concluded in Sept 1941. It only hardend the Japanese intention to finally win in China where they had at that point suffered more loss of combat troops then they would suffer in the war with the Western Alliances. (This battle of Changsha resulted in over 40k Japanese dead) The Western Alliance never encountered Japanese forces in numbers common in China before MacArthur returns to Philippines and the later battle for Okinanwa.
Japan by late 1941 in China was just trying to force the conflict to a close. They thought that cutting off supply and aquiring enough from the SRA would convince China to come to terms and thus allow them to settle the Pacific War as well. They expanded their war aims after they realized the easy gains in DEI but the orginal plan was to trade back the SRA for peace with the West after ending the China conflict in their favor.

The largest single reason for their failure in China was they never offered the Chinese anything better then complete defeat. (much like the Germans in Europe they forced their enemies into continued fighting because anything was better then surrender) Japan never offered a popular Chinese goverment in their conquered territories and so the Chinese were able to contiune to fight without inner opposition. The Japanese even forced the Nationalist and Communist factions to cooperate.

The largest single reason for the IJA's failure in China was not because they never offered the Chinese anyting better than complete defeat. In fact the Japanese created several puppet governments in an effort to create the illusory independent governments much like ex-Ching dynasty emperor Puyi's Manchukuo. The main reason why the Japanese was never going to win in China was because the Chinese, regardless of KMT or CCP ideology, hated the Japanese. This enmity began after the humiliating defeat during the Sino-Japan War. The Ching fleet was completely destroyed by the Japanese and China lost control of Korea and Taiwan to the Japanese. And thus began a half century of humiliation at the hands of the Japanese from the loss of Manchuria in 1931 to the Rape of Nanking in 1937 to Operation Ichi-Go against the Communists.

This intense hatred for the Japanese was even able to loosely bind together the KMT and CCP. However, the alliance did not keep the KMT and CCP from backstabbing each other whenever the opportunity arose. In one instance thousands of female CCP troops were captured and raped by a KMT corp. But without a doubt both sides committed their full energy to fight the Japanese, although it must be said the Chiang was never eager to fight. He was much more willing to hang back and await the Japanese defeat by the Americans. It was through much conjoling to get him to even committ troops to the Burma campaign.

[mogami]

Hi, Those puppet Chinese never fooled anyone. They spouted the Japanese line. Japan never offered the Chinese people anything. A puppet to the Jap is not an offer. The puppets were just as brutal as the Japanese. Japan never offered a popular goverment to the occupied areas. In order to end the China war they first had to end the opposition and they never gave the Chinese anything to view as an improvement. It does not matter that Chinese leaders were also brutal. They were Chinese.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: sveint

It is safer and more effective to hold and strengthen rather than atack in CHina.

I respectfully disagree. Japan has a unique chance at the beginning when the Chinese forces are off balance and not fortified.

While it is "safe" to just dig in and maintain the situation, this will do nothing to help you elsewhere in the Pacific. But if you can beat back the Chinese and free up forces...

Which is TRUELY STUPID when you consider it as the Chinese were the one "Allied"
power that wasn't and couldn't be suprised by the Japanese; having been at war with
them since 1937 and relatively "stalemated" for virtually all of 1941. The Chinese
should START WITP fully fully dug in and prepared as they had been holding that
front for months. The fact that the game offers a Japanese Army that has just ship-
ped a good portion of it's strength and supplies out to fight a whole new world of
enemies even a chance of also achieving any major gains in China at the same time
is one of it's glaring problems. The whole Pacific War started because the Japanese
Army COULDN'T win the war it had started in China and was caught in a morass.

[Bandkanon]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Those puppet Chinese never fooled anyone. They spouted the Japanese line. Japan never offered the Chinese people anything. A puppet to the Jap is not an offer. The puppets were just as brutal as the Japanese. Japan never offered a popular goverment to the occupied areas. In order to end the China war they first had to end the opposition and they never gave the Chinese anything to view as an improvement. It does not matter that Chinese leaders were also brutal. They were Chinese.

I agree that the puppet governments were just that, puppets. However, I would present the contention that it didn't matter what the Japanese brought, it could have been utopia itself, but it would never be accepted because it was brought by the Japanese.

[sveint]

The Chinese should START WITP fully fully dug in and prepared

Agree 100%.

Anyone reading this able to convince the developers to massively upgrade the Chinese forts in the scenarios? I'd also like better troop placement but high level forts would go a long way.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: sveint
Anyone reading this able to convince the developers to massively upgrade the Chinese forts in the scenarios? I'd also like better troop placement but high level forts would go a long way.

No, but how do I convince you to try this yourself in the database/scenario editor. [;)]

[sveint]

Well in my next PBEM game (my last one, having trouble handling the 3 I already have going) we will have a house rule where Japan is not allowed any offensives in China until Jan 1942.

[kevini100]

ORIGINAL: sveint

The Chinese should START WITP fully fully dug in and prepared

Agree 100%.

Anyone reading this able to convince the developers to massively upgrade the Chinese forts in the scenarios? I'd also like better troop placement but high level forts would go a long way.

Actually I don't think China should be dug in too much in the Northen part of the central rail line since this area was retaken by them.

Kevin

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: sveint

Anyone reading this able to convince the developers to massively upgrade the Chinese forts in the scenarios? I'd also like better troop placement but high level forts would go a long way.

The map is all wrong. Something I wrote several weeks ago:

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... 6%23684052

[Arsaces]

Excellent points by Mogami and Bandkanon.

The China theatre was the prime focus of japanese policy. The Pacific war was merely a (disastrous) effort to bring the "China incident" to a close. By december 1941, 150,000 Japanese soldiers had died in China.

Actually the Nanking government which the Japanese set up had at least some credibility at first. Its leader, Wang Ching-wei, had been Sun Yat Sen's secretary and was later Chiang's main rival within the Kuomintang, where he represented ideological orthodoxy. A gifted and brilliant man, he could lay some claim to represent Sun Yat Sen's heritage. However he totally discredited himself by his collaboration with the Japanese - and thus lost any value he could have given the Japanese, who would later recognize this. Prince Konoye himself came to understand that the Nanking government rendered any negotiated peace impossible.

Basically Japan was overextended in China and could'nt assimilate those regions of China which it occupied.
The Japanese operations of 1944 were motivated by the desire to deprive China of airbases from which American bombers could be deployed. Even had the Kuomintang collapsed and the West abandoned China, it is difficult to see how Japan could have governed China for very long. China is simply too big !

Chiang's policy,once the West entered the war against Japan, was the traditional one of "using the barbarians to fight the barbarians". One must admit that he had great success at this !

For American readers I can recommend Barbara Tuchman's "Stilwell and the American Experience in China" which won its author the Pullitzer prize. It is still an exemplary story of cultural misunderstanding and of the limits of military power - not without relevance for today !

To get back to WITP, I agree that there should be more constraints on what the Japanese can do within the game in China. It is simply too easy for the Japanese in 1941-42.

Cheers,

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Pacific War makes no sense unless you also understand the war between China and Japan.
Japan had pretty much taken all the area they desired in China but was unable to get the CHinese to agree to terms. The Chinese were getting aid through Burma and Indo China so to cut off this flow the Japanese occupied Indo China and this resulted in the boycott by the USA and other powers that resulted in Japan declaring war on them to aquire the SRA.
Just prior to the outbreak of the war in the Pacific the Japanese had conducted a major operation aimed at taking Changsha. They dropped Paratroops (the largest Japanese drop during the 1931-1945 period) And succeeded in occuping the city. However the Chinese launched their largest offensive of the 1931-1945 period and wiped out the paratroops and surrounded the city. The Japanese were able to fight their way out and return to their starting bases. This battle concluded in Sept 1941. It only hardend the Japanese intention to finally win in China where they had at that point suffered more loss of combat troops then they would suffer in the war with the Western Alliances. (This battle of Changsha resulted in over 40k Japanese dead) The Western Alliance never encountered Japanese forces in numbers common in China before MacArthur returns to Philippines and the later battle for Okinanwa.
Japan by late 1941 in China was just trying to force the conflict to a close. They thought that cutting off supply and aquiring enough from the SRA would convince China to come to terms and thus allow them to settle the Pacific War as well. They expanded their war aims after they realized the easy gains in DEI but the orginal plan was to trade back the SRA for peace with the West after ending the China conflict in their favor.

The largest single reason for their failure in China was they never offered the Chinese anything better then complete defeat. (much like the Germans in Europe they forced their enemies into continued fighting because anything was better then surrender) Japan never offered a popular Chinese goverment in their conquered territories and so the Chinese were able to contiune to fight without inner opposition. The Japanese even forced the Nationalist and Communist factions to cooperate.

The largest single reason for the IJA's failure in China was not because they never offered the Chinese anyting better than complete defeat. In fact the Japanese created several puppet governments in an effort to create the illusory independent governments much like ex-Ching dynasty emperor Puyi's Manchukuo. The main reason why the Japanese was never going to win in China was because the Chinese, regardless of KMT or CCP ideology, hated the Japanese. This enmity began after the humiliating defeat during the Sino-Japan War. The Ching fleet was completely destroyed by the Japanese and China lost control of Korea and Taiwan to the Japanese. And thus began a half century of humiliation at the hands of the Japanese from the loss of Manchuria in 1931 to the Rape of Nanking in 1937 to Operation Ichi-Go against the Communists.

This intense hatred for the Japanese was even able to loosely bind together the KMT and CCP. However, the alliance did not keep the KMT and CCP from backstabbing each other whenever the opportunity arose. In one instance thousands of female CCP troops were captured and raped by a KMT corp. But without a doubt both sides committed their full energy to fight the Japanese, although it must be said the Chiang was never eager to fight. He was much more willing to hang back and await the Japanese defeat by the Americans. It was through much conjoling to get him to even committ troops to the Burma campaign.